1 00:00:00,815 --> 00:00:04,085 Hello, and welcome to Stronger Voices Together, brought 2 00:00:04,085 --> 00:00:08,285 to you by John Lyons Charity, a podcast dedicated 3 00:00:08,465 --> 00:00:11,965 to exploring the diverse, vibrant world 4 00:00:12,105 --> 00:00:13,885 of disability and inclusion. 5 00:00:14,825 --> 00:00:18,485 The charity's funding strives to support all children 6 00:00:18,665 --> 00:00:22,805 and young people through education, including those 7 00:00:22,955 --> 00:00:26,965 with learning and access needs, championing their right 8 00:00:27,105 --> 00:00:30,365 to access the same opportunities as anyone else. 9 00:00:31,305 --> 00:00:35,845 I'm your host, Lucy Edwards, blind broadcaster, 10 00:00:36,515 --> 00:00:39,565 content creator and disability activist, 11 00:00:40,145 --> 00:00:42,605 and I'm delighted to be on this journey with you. 12 00:00:43,105 --> 00:00:44,965 For those of you listening to this podcast 13 00:00:45,225 --> 00:00:48,925 and not watching, I'm joined by my gorgeous guide dog, 14 00:00:48,925 --> 00:00:51,885 miss Molly, at my feet, my audio description is 15 00:00:51,885 --> 00:00:53,685 that I've got a Forest green dress on. 16 00:00:54,195 --> 00:00:57,685 It's the velour in Feel and Touch, 17 00:00:58,425 --> 00:01:02,765 and I'm wearing a nude lipstick and coral eyeshadow. 18 00:01:15,485 --> 00:01:19,115 Hello, and thanks so much for tuning in to our podcast 19 00:01:19,885 --> 00:01:23,475 where inclusivity is at the heart of every conversation. 20 00:01:24,095 --> 00:01:28,835 In today's episode, we will be exploring inclusive practice, 21 00:01:29,185 --> 00:01:30,235 what this really means, 22 00:01:30,895 --> 00:01:35,075 and how we can do more together to provide opportunities 23 00:01:35,575 --> 00:01:37,395 for all children and young people. 24 00:01:38,375 --> 00:01:41,835 To discuss this further, I'm joined by Sheryl Catto, 25 00:01:42,955 --> 00:01:44,875 artistic Director at Action Space, 26 00:01:45,375 --> 00:01:47,795 and Luke Holloway Williams, artistic 27 00:01:48,355 --> 00:01:50,635 director at the Primary Shakespeare Company. 28 00:01:51,525 --> 00:01:55,075 Hello everybody. Thank you for joining me. Hello. Hello. 29 00:01:55,165 --> 00:01:57,675 Hello. So, I always love to start these podcasts, 30 00:01:57,815 --> 00:02:00,795 if you guys don't mind with an audio description of 31 00:02:00,795 --> 00:02:03,635 what you both look like, and also your pronouns 32 00:02:04,055 --> 00:02:05,355 and a bit more about yourselves. 33 00:02:05,415 --> 00:02:08,075 So who's gonna take it away first? Sheryl? Yeah. 34 00:02:08,215 --> 00:02:11,555 Hi. Yeah, I'm Sheryl. Um, my pronouns are she her. 35 00:02:11,975 --> 00:02:15,515 Um, I am an over middle age, um, black woman. 36 00:02:15,915 --> 00:02:18,315 I have very short, natural gray hair, 37 00:02:18,775 --> 00:02:21,475 and I'm wearing a black polo neck jumper 38 00:02:21,615 --> 00:02:25,055 and a sort of gray-ish jacket. 39 00:02:25,565 --> 00:02:27,215 Nice. And Luke? 40 00:02:28,355 --> 00:02:31,455 Um, I am, yeah, I'm Luke Holloway Williams. 41 00:02:32,015 --> 00:02:34,575 I am also over middle age. 42 00:02:34,955 --> 00:02:38,575 Um, I don't have much hair to speak of. 43 00:02:38,645 --> 00:02:41,735 What there is is white, but I'm wearing a hat today, not 44 00:02:41,735 --> 00:02:44,055 because of vanity, but because I'm really cold 45 00:02:44,875 --> 00:02:48,535 and I'm also wearing, I'm also wearing a sort 46 00:02:48,695 --> 00:02:53,295 of charcoal gray, polo neck, um, other sort of jaunty, 47 00:02:53,375 --> 00:02:55,375 nautical, uh, style, I would say. 48 00:02:55,375 --> 00:02:56,935 It's quite, yeah, exactly. 49 00:02:57,335 --> 00:02:58,815 I should be singing a sea shanty 50 00:02:59,385 --> 00:03:01,885 in this or something like that. And also I love that 51 00:03:01,885 --> 00:03:02,885 Visual. 52 00:03:03,635 --> 00:03:04,885 Nice. And what do you both do? 53 00:03:05,025 --> 00:03:06,485 So, do you wanna take it away, Sheryl? 54 00:03:06,905 --> 00:03:09,605 Uh, yeah. Well, I'm, as you said, I'm creative director 55 00:03:09,745 --> 00:03:11,725 and, um, CEO of Action space. 56 00:03:11,905 --> 00:03:14,165 Um, action Space is a London based charity 57 00:03:14,195 --> 00:03:16,125 that supports learning disabled artists. 58 00:03:16,905 --> 00:03:21,405 So, um, really our aim is that any young person 59 00:03:21,425 --> 00:03:25,005 or child with a learning disability can decide they want 60 00:03:25,005 --> 00:03:29,765 to be an artist, a visual artist, and, um, achieve and, 61 00:03:29,785 --> 00:03:30,845 and overachieve. 62 00:03:31,825 --> 00:03:36,365 And Luke, Um, I am the artistic director 63 00:03:36,705 --> 00:03:38,845 of the primary Shakespeare company, 64 00:03:39,525 --> 00:03:42,125 although the people with whom I work would say I'm only the 65 00:03:42,405 --> 00:03:45,205 artistic director 'cause I got to pick job title first. 66 00:03:46,165 --> 00:03:48,885 But I did sort of, yeah, I did sort of start it off 67 00:03:48,945 --> 00:03:50,485 and I split my time between doing that 68 00:03:50,785 --> 00:03:54,885 and teaching in a primary school half of the week. 69 00:03:55,105 --> 00:03:59,965 Um, and primary Shakespeare company is, uh, a charity 70 00:04:00,075 --> 00:04:03,525 that started off, um, with a mission 71 00:04:03,625 --> 00:04:05,325 to help raise attainment 72 00:04:05,545 --> 00:04:09,725 and achievement for all children, uh, through an engagement 73 00:04:09,875 --> 00:04:14,685 with drama generally, and Shakespeare in particular. 74 00:04:15,025 --> 00:04:16,885 And just to give a little bit of background, 75 00:04:17,105 --> 00:04:19,605 we started off a, a lot of our work 76 00:04:19,605 --> 00:04:23,605 for a long time was in non SEN uh, settings. 77 00:04:23,985 --> 00:04:25,845 And in about sort of six 78 00:04:25,845 --> 00:04:29,605 or seven years ago, we started our to deepen our practice, 79 00:04:30,305 --> 00:04:31,325 um, through, 80 00:04:31,865 --> 00:04:34,165 and I really believe that that is what happened. 81 00:04:34,325 --> 00:04:36,925 I think that our practice has become deeper 82 00:04:37,465 --> 00:04:40,965 and, uh, more challenging artistically 83 00:04:41,465 --> 00:04:42,605 and more fulfilling 84 00:04:42,625 --> 00:04:46,205 and richer through our engagement with SEN schools. 85 00:04:46,985 --> 00:04:49,005 So, a question for both of you then. 86 00:04:50,195 --> 00:04:52,965 What does inclusive practice mean to you? 87 00:04:53,475 --> 00:04:54,565 What does it look like? 88 00:04:55,745 --> 00:04:57,845 Um, well, inclusive practice, 89 00:04:57,945 --> 00:05:00,445 to me is just taking away barriers. 90 00:05:00,825 --> 00:05:03,125 Um, it, it's very bespoke. 91 00:05:03,825 --> 00:05:07,045 Um, it's, uh, I mean, our work is very artist centered. 92 00:05:07,265 --> 00:05:10,485 So we work with about 70 artists on a weekly basis, 93 00:05:10,705 --> 00:05:12,765 and they come to us for studio sessions. 94 00:05:13,105 --> 00:05:14,805 The barriers they face are different. 95 00:05:15,305 --> 00:05:17,885 Um, so it's not about having a tick box, 96 00:05:17,995 --> 00:05:20,805 it's about focusing on each one individually, 97 00:05:20,865 --> 00:05:22,285 saying, what do they need? 98 00:05:22,705 --> 00:05:24,405 Um, what are the barriers are they facing? 99 00:05:24,545 --> 00:05:27,685 How do we make what they want to happen possible? 100 00:05:28,505 --> 00:05:30,085 So that's inclusion to me. 101 00:05:30,085 --> 00:05:31,925 And we were talking about earlier, in a lot 102 00:05:31,925 --> 00:05:33,965 of ways it's really best practice 103 00:05:33,965 --> 00:05:37,685 because everyone should have, you know, that approach. 104 00:05:37,865 --> 00:05:39,965 But definitely for us, it's about, it's, 105 00:05:40,035 --> 00:05:42,125 it's bespoke, it's individual. Mm-Hmm. 106 00:05:42,895 --> 00:05:45,165 Would you say that Luke, it's bespoke and individual? 107 00:05:45,885 --> 00:05:47,965 I would say that's absolutely true, 108 00:05:48,145 --> 00:05:50,445 and it's about, I think, you know, for us, 109 00:05:52,435 --> 00:05:54,325 what inclusivity looks like to me is 110 00:05:54,325 --> 00:05:58,805 that every single person in that room is equally engaged. 111 00:05:58,875 --> 00:06:02,725 That we have devised, you know, a way of making 112 00:06:02,725 --> 00:06:06,525 that workshop work, where everybody, it does the, you know, 113 00:06:06,585 --> 00:06:08,645 or to spin it, put it on its head. 114 00:06:09,065 --> 00:06:11,965 If anybody is, you know, say, sitting in the corner 115 00:06:12,035 --> 00:06:14,365 with their one-to-one, and we've, 116 00:06:14,425 --> 00:06:17,685 and somebody has given them something else to do, we failed. 117 00:06:17,755 --> 00:06:20,045 That is not an inclusive session. 118 00:06:20,825 --> 00:06:24,005 Um, you know, having said that, you know, when you go, 119 00:06:24,105 --> 00:06:28,485 you know, a first session is very often about, you know, 120 00:06:28,485 --> 00:06:31,045 looking at what, looking at who those people are. 121 00:06:31,265 --> 00:06:32,845 You don't necessarily, you know, 122 00:06:32,845 --> 00:06:35,685 and being as yours, you are saying bespoke. 123 00:06:36,025 --> 00:06:37,965 So, but it's, you know, it's the hard work 124 00:06:37,965 --> 00:06:41,485 that you then need to do to go, right, okay, what are they, 125 00:06:41,505 --> 00:06:42,765 sh what can I see? 126 00:06:42,765 --> 00:06:44,685 What are they offering, you know? Mm-Hmm. 127 00:06:44,905 --> 00:06:48,005 And you, and inclusion, you, it's, 128 00:06:48,005 --> 00:06:50,405 you've defined it very well there in that setting, 129 00:06:50,785 --> 00:06:53,765 but what would you say is the difference between inclusion 130 00:06:53,905 --> 00:06:55,245 and accessibility, though? 131 00:06:57,015 --> 00:06:59,865 Accessibility for me is, is sort 132 00:06:59,865 --> 00:07:02,225 of a tool towards inclusion, right? 133 00:07:02,495 --> 00:07:04,585 It's what are the things, what are the tools? 134 00:07:04,735 --> 00:07:07,985 What are the strategies that need to be in place so that 135 00:07:08,525 --> 00:07:09,905 people can be included? 136 00:07:10,785 --> 00:07:13,385 I was gonna say another thing to that too, though. Okay. 137 00:07:13,465 --> 00:07:15,985 I think it's also important for people to be able to choose 138 00:07:16,085 --> 00:07:18,505 to not engage and not be included. 139 00:07:18,965 --> 00:07:21,505 Um, we've got a lot of artists who will come into the studio 140 00:07:21,565 --> 00:07:22,625 and they're just having a day 141 00:07:22,625 --> 00:07:24,345 where they just don't feel like it. 142 00:07:24,725 --> 00:07:27,025 And I think it's also really important that they're able 143 00:07:27,025 --> 00:07:29,745 to say, I just don't feel like it today. Right. 144 00:07:30,055 --> 00:07:31,585 Yeah. Mm-Hmm Mm-Hmm. Yeah. 145 00:07:31,585 --> 00:07:33,505 I think you, what you're saying is it's really important 146 00:07:33,505 --> 00:07:36,345 that people can be their authentic selves Yes. 147 00:07:37,205 --> 00:07:38,345 Within a session. 148 00:07:39,105 --> 00:07:41,385 I mean, for us, it's, you know, the journey 149 00:07:41,415 --> 00:07:42,505 that we've been on 150 00:07:42,605 --> 00:07:44,705 as a charity, I think is very interesting. 151 00:07:44,705 --> 00:07:47,585 We started off, um, as I said, 152 00:07:47,585 --> 00:07:49,625 we started off in non SEN sessions. 153 00:07:50,565 --> 00:07:52,345 Sheryl and I were talking about this beforehand. 154 00:07:52,535 --> 00:07:54,385 It's very difficult to get away from the word 155 00:07:54,385 --> 00:07:55,505 mainstream primary schools. 156 00:07:55,525 --> 00:07:57,025 For me, that's quite problematic. 157 00:07:57,565 --> 00:08:01,385 But, you know, for want of a better word, using that work, 158 00:08:01,385 --> 00:08:03,065 working in mainstream primary schools, 159 00:08:03,645 --> 00:08:07,185 and a lot of the settings in which were, there was 160 00:08:09,025 --> 00:08:12,145 A lot, we felt that a lot of the pupils whom we encountered, 161 00:08:12,325 --> 00:08:14,065 we were trying to teach or, or, 162 00:08:14,125 --> 00:08:18,425 or help learn, had, were excluded for a number of reasons. 163 00:08:18,765 --> 00:08:20,425 Now, they were excluded, a lot of them 164 00:08:20,425 --> 00:08:21,945 because of language barriers, 165 00:08:21,945 --> 00:08:25,105 because we were working with cohorts at that time. 166 00:08:25,525 --> 00:08:27,465 You know, a lot of children who were refugees 167 00:08:27,845 --> 00:08:32,105 or for whom English was, uh, a second language for, 168 00:08:32,125 --> 00:08:34,865 you know, so there was sort of cultural impoverishment, 169 00:08:34,945 --> 00:08:36,025 a lot of very, you know, 170 00:08:36,185 --> 00:08:37,665 children from very deprived backgrounds. 171 00:08:38,205 --> 00:08:41,545 And we started off, you know, there weren't, 172 00:08:41,565 --> 00:08:44,145 not accessing the curriculum as it were. 173 00:08:44,325 --> 00:08:46,545 So we were starting to look, well, how can we make for a lot 174 00:08:46,545 --> 00:08:48,385 of these children who can't speak this language, 175 00:08:48,495 --> 00:08:51,185 what can we do to make this accessible? 176 00:08:51,185 --> 00:08:53,185 So we've all, so our sort 177 00:08:53,185 --> 00:08:57,405 of ethos came from looking at children who weren't a, 178 00:08:57,505 --> 00:09:00,765 you know, who weren't, um, included, 179 00:09:00,905 --> 00:09:03,165 who weren't gaining access to the curriculum. 180 00:09:03,185 --> 00:09:05,885 And then as we started to move into working with, 181 00:09:07,515 --> 00:09:12,165 into SEN schools, um, that was the same principle, 182 00:09:12,185 --> 00:09:16,845 but we really felt that we had to, we had 183 00:09:16,845 --> 00:09:19,445 to find an additional, additional approach. 184 00:09:19,465 --> 00:09:22,605 And what that has become is looking at the person in 185 00:09:22,605 --> 00:09:27,205 that room who has the most need, and starting with them. 186 00:09:27,785 --> 00:09:30,005 So for us, you know, we are trying to create a session, 187 00:09:30,005 --> 00:09:33,525 which includes everybody, but our work has to begin 188 00:09:33,675 --> 00:09:36,405 with the person who has the most access needs 189 00:09:36,625 --> 00:09:38,485 and putting in place things 190 00:09:38,675 --> 00:09:41,165 that they need in order to access them. 191 00:09:41,235 --> 00:09:45,365 This, we think that this, this work, you know, I, 192 00:09:45,595 --> 00:09:49,005 I've sometimes been quite irritated by people saying, oh, 193 00:09:49,385 --> 00:09:51,765 oh, so you are simplifying what you're doing, 194 00:09:51,785 --> 00:09:55,205 and I think this could not be more wrong. 195 00:09:55,515 --> 00:09:58,005 It's actual opposite of what we are doing. 196 00:09:58,035 --> 00:10:02,685 There's some very, very hard critical thinking 197 00:10:03,115 --> 00:10:06,485 that we do to say, right, what is the absolute 198 00:10:08,085 --> 00:10:09,405 kernel of this play? 199 00:10:09,425 --> 00:10:13,685 What's the central issue of this play? What does it turn on? 200 00:10:13,715 --> 00:10:15,325 Because if we can find that 201 00:10:15,325 --> 00:10:17,605 and we can find a physical representation for that, 202 00:10:17,705 --> 00:10:20,725 that's something that everybody can access. 203 00:10:20,785 --> 00:10:24,725 So, you know, so for instance, when we worked on Macbeth, 204 00:10:25,145 --> 00:10:26,485 uh, a couple of years ago, 205 00:10:28,095 --> 00:10:31,365 after a lot of, of work shopping, a lot of work, 206 00:10:31,365 --> 00:10:33,605 and a lot of thought, we decided that the crown, 207 00:10:34,435 --> 00:10:36,405 just the physical object of the crown. 208 00:10:36,425 --> 00:10:40,085 And what happens when you place a crown on somebody's head? 209 00:10:40,955 --> 00:10:42,245 What does that do to that person? 210 00:10:42,245 --> 00:10:44,765 Or how does everybody look at that person? 211 00:10:44,825 --> 00:10:46,805 Do they look at them differently when 212 00:10:46,805 --> 00:10:48,125 they're suddenly wearing a crown? 213 00:10:48,125 --> 00:10:49,845 Does it change? And it does. 214 00:10:51,025 --> 00:10:52,725 You put a crown on somebody 215 00:10:52,745 --> 00:10:54,885 and suddenly that per that person in that room, 216 00:10:54,945 --> 00:10:56,485 you look at the person in that room in a 217 00:10:56,485 --> 00:10:57,765 completely different way. 218 00:10:58,425 --> 00:11:00,995 And if you take the crown away, then 219 00:11:00,995 --> 00:11:03,155 what happens if you offer them a crown? 220 00:11:05,015 --> 00:11:08,035 Do they choose to take it? All, all these things. 221 00:11:08,135 --> 00:11:13,075 And the, these transactions started to inform, uh, 222 00:11:13,575 --> 00:11:16,755 the direction that the work was going to go, but everybody, 223 00:11:17,415 --> 00:11:20,475 and that what, that actual work not only informed 224 00:11:20,475 --> 00:11:24,955 what the work that we were doing with, uh, with children, 225 00:11:24,985 --> 00:11:26,155 with a variety of needs, 226 00:11:26,155 --> 00:11:29,395 but also started to feed into our mainstream. 227 00:11:29,615 --> 00:11:32,835 That's, again, or our non SEN setting work as well. 228 00:11:32,835 --> 00:11:35,595 Because I felt that, that the work that we had done, 229 00:11:35,745 --> 00:11:39,355 we'd found the most powerful points of the play. 230 00:11:40,215 --> 00:11:42,355 So, you know, that's what we were saying earlier. 231 00:11:42,575 --> 00:11:46,395 We don't think that this is good SEN practice. 232 00:11:46,415 --> 00:11:49,915 We just think this is good artistic practice. 233 00:11:50,705 --> 00:11:53,805 Well, I, I was gonna say 'cause we work differently. Okay. 234 00:11:53,805 --> 00:11:55,405 Um, we're not teaching 235 00:11:55,405 --> 00:11:57,125 and we're not in an educational setting. 236 00:11:57,625 --> 00:11:59,125 Um, we're facilitating. 237 00:11:59,305 --> 00:12:02,045 So we're starting, we, we have small groups in general. 238 00:12:02,225 --> 00:12:03,725 We like, like to work with six 239 00:12:03,725 --> 00:12:05,605 to eight people at a time in a studio, 240 00:12:05,705 --> 00:12:07,085 in a professional studio setting. 241 00:12:07,105 --> 00:12:08,805 Mm-Hmm. And we're about starting 242 00:12:08,805 --> 00:12:10,805 with the individual, starting where they are. 243 00:12:10,905 --> 00:12:14,365 So someone comes to us new and joins a studio project. 244 00:12:14,615 --> 00:12:16,645 We'll literally have out everything, 245 00:12:16,785 --> 00:12:18,165 all the materials, anything. 246 00:12:18,585 --> 00:12:20,045 And they start where they start. 247 00:12:20,145 --> 00:12:22,965 And they work on a one-to-one basis with a facilitator 248 00:12:23,385 --> 00:12:26,165 who sort of does a lot of OB observations, looks at 249 00:12:26,165 --> 00:12:30,045 what they're interested in, starts introducing materials, 250 00:12:30,265 --> 00:12:33,685 and, and sort of develops their practice organically. 251 00:12:34,425 --> 00:12:36,325 Um, we have people 252 00:12:36,385 --> 00:12:38,645 who have processes that they have to go through. 253 00:12:38,745 --> 00:12:40,925 We had one person that we worked with who, 254 00:12:40,925 --> 00:12:45,765 when he came into the studio, he needed to pour out 32 pots 255 00:12:45,765 --> 00:12:48,685 with paint before he could start painting. 256 00:12:49,305 --> 00:12:52,285 So, and, and everywhere else he went, they would try 257 00:12:52,285 --> 00:12:53,325 to rush him through that, 258 00:12:53,385 --> 00:12:55,205 or they would say, we don't have enough materials. 259 00:12:55,205 --> 00:12:57,605 You can't do that. He wasn't doing any work. 260 00:12:57,705 --> 00:12:59,765 He wasn't, he was miserable. 261 00:13:00,505 --> 00:13:02,285 He came to us, we let him do it. 262 00:13:02,825 --> 00:13:07,245 And we then realized that if he could do those 32 pots 263 00:13:07,285 --> 00:13:08,645 that he had poured out, we could then 264 00:13:08,665 --> 00:13:09,685 put them away somewhere. 265 00:13:09,865 --> 00:13:12,885 He was then at the next stage in his practice, 266 00:13:12,905 --> 00:13:14,125 and he could start painting. 267 00:13:14,665 --> 00:13:17,245 Now, that came through observation. 268 00:13:17,825 --> 00:13:20,125 It also came through talking to support workers. 269 00:13:20,265 --> 00:13:21,725 It came to talking to teachers. 270 00:13:21,745 --> 00:13:24,845 He had worked with it, came to through talking to all sorts 271 00:13:24,845 --> 00:13:25,925 of people in general. 272 00:13:25,945 --> 00:13:29,285 People say to us, don't let him pour out 42 pots of paint. 273 00:13:29,435 --> 00:13:31,605 Then we go, let's pour out 42 274 00:13:31,605 --> 00:13:32,805 pots of paint and see what happens. 275 00:13:33,505 --> 00:13:36,325 Um, but yeah, that wraparound is really important. 276 00:13:36,585 --> 00:13:40,165 Um, we constantly are evaluating and monitoring. 277 00:13:41,145 --> 00:13:42,205 That's 360. 278 00:13:42,465 --> 00:13:43,845 So we'll send home, you know, 279 00:13:44,205 --> 00:13:47,885 'cause we're really interested also in looking at, um, the, 280 00:13:47,905 --> 00:13:50,525 the outcomes outside of the studio. 281 00:13:50,785 --> 00:13:52,685 So one of the things with a lot of the people 282 00:13:52,685 --> 00:13:55,165 that we're working with, they're spending their whole life 283 00:13:55,415 --> 00:13:56,605 being given a box 284 00:13:56,625 --> 00:13:58,725 and told what to do when they come to our studio. 285 00:13:58,955 --> 00:14:00,845 This is their spot, this is their time. 286 00:14:01,025 --> 00:14:02,165 Do whatever you wanna do. 287 00:14:03,065 --> 00:14:06,405 And often, um, the whole process of deciding what they want 288 00:14:06,405 --> 00:14:09,405 to do, so analyzing options, deciding what they want to do, 289 00:14:10,075 --> 00:14:12,885 then they get more confident. 290 00:14:13,065 --> 00:14:16,285 So we'll get feedback from families saying, oh, well, 291 00:14:16,385 --> 00:14:18,605 you know, now when he comes home, he'll be really sort 292 00:14:18,605 --> 00:14:20,685 of quite determined about what he wants 293 00:14:20,745 --> 00:14:22,405 for dinner and things like that. 294 00:14:22,425 --> 00:14:24,205 Mm-Hmm. So, you know, there's, it, 295 00:14:24,265 --> 00:14:26,085 it spills outside of the studio. 296 00:14:26,315 --> 00:14:29,965 Yeah. I mean, so Sheryl, is, is that why 297 00:14:31,725 --> 00:14:35,885 a specialist organization like Action Space needs to exist 298 00:14:35,885 --> 00:14:37,525 because of those processes? 299 00:14:37,585 --> 00:14:39,005 Do you need to educate? Uh, 300 00:14:39,005 --> 00:14:41,445 When I first came to Action Space, I remember saying, 301 00:14:41,745 --> 00:14:43,645 you know, my goal would be in 20 years 302 00:14:43,645 --> 00:14:45,565 that there doesn't need to be an action space 303 00:14:45,565 --> 00:14:47,205 because all of these artists could be 304 00:14:47,205 --> 00:14:48,285 just out doing whatever. 305 00:14:48,785 --> 00:14:49,965 Now I'm turning it around 306 00:14:50,025 --> 00:14:53,005 and saying, I, my, my goal is that organizations, 307 00:14:53,055 --> 00:14:56,805 mainstream organizations understand that there needs 308 00:14:56,805 --> 00:14:59,445 to be the involvement of these supported studios 309 00:14:59,445 --> 00:15:00,805 and organizations like us. 310 00:15:00,905 --> 00:15:02,965 Mm. Because we bring an expertise 311 00:15:03,595 --> 00:15:04,885 that we can share with them. 312 00:15:04,945 --> 00:15:07,085 But also it's that relationship. So, 313 00:15:07,085 --> 00:15:10,405 So if that's your goal, then, and the, 314 00:15:10,405 --> 00:15:12,725 and people are listening to this podcast Mm-Hmm. 315 00:15:12,805 --> 00:15:13,805 What would you say to them? 316 00:15:14,065 --> 00:15:18,725 How easy was it to make an inclusive environment 317 00:15:18,825 --> 00:15:22,165 for your, um, you know, people that come to your classes? 318 00:15:22,165 --> 00:15:26,125 Because, you know, pe people are scared to do the basics. 319 00:15:26,125 --> 00:15:28,245 Yeah. And you know, again, I, 320 00:15:28,435 --> 00:15:30,165 I've said it a a lot in these podcasts. 321 00:15:30,165 --> 00:15:32,245 You know, I knew nothing about disability 322 00:15:32,245 --> 00:15:33,405 until I became to save myself. 323 00:15:33,465 --> 00:15:35,445 So sometimes it's not people's fault. No. 324 00:15:35,745 --> 00:15:39,085 But now, you know, what do they have to do? 325 00:15:39,385 --> 00:15:41,885 Oh, um, we make mistakes all the time. 326 00:15:42,115 --> 00:15:43,405 Like on a daily basis. 327 00:15:43,515 --> 00:15:45,645 Even though, you know, people, you make a mistake, 328 00:15:45,705 --> 00:15:47,165 and when you make a mistake, you say, 329 00:15:47,305 --> 00:15:49,125 I'm really sorry I've made a mistake. 330 00:15:49,145 --> 00:15:52,205 But you learn and you move on. And that is really important. 331 00:15:52,265 --> 00:15:56,005 We work with a lot of, um, big cultural organizations, 332 00:15:56,545 --> 00:15:59,085 and often they will say, well, we've really want 333 00:15:59,085 --> 00:16:01,005 to do more inclusive work, but we're afraid. 334 00:16:01,185 --> 00:16:02,925 It it, if you don't fight that fear 335 00:16:02,925 --> 00:16:04,325 and you don't take that step, 336 00:16:04,515 --> 00:16:06,285 then nothing's gonna change. Mm. 337 00:16:06,805 --> 00:16:10,885 I agree. And Luke, would, would you also say that, how, 338 00:16:11,065 --> 00:16:14,485 how easy was it to adapt your programs to be inclusive? 339 00:16:15,185 --> 00:16:16,645 And what are the core things 340 00:16:16,795 --> 00:16:18,925 that make an opportunity inclusive 341 00:16:19,665 --> 00:16:21,685 for anyone listening who's never done it before? Yeah. 342 00:16:21,685 --> 00:16:25,445 Yeah. Um, well, I first of all wanted to pick up on, on 343 00:16:25,445 --> 00:16:27,405 what Sheryl said, because I was, I just, I, 344 00:16:27,405 --> 00:16:30,805 something lifted in my heart when you said, uh, you know, 345 00:16:30,805 --> 00:16:32,445 talked about making mistakes 346 00:16:32,745 --> 00:16:34,325 and sort of feeling that, you know, 347 00:16:34,325 --> 00:16:35,805 that fear of making a mistake. 348 00:16:36,025 --> 00:16:37,125 So one of the things that we look 349 00:16:37,125 --> 00:16:40,285 for in our practitioners is, is somebody who, who would, 350 00:16:40,945 --> 00:16:42,245 that's where they want to be. 351 00:16:42,705 --> 00:16:43,805 That's where they want to be. 352 00:16:43,905 --> 00:16:46,965 So for us, so how e how easy is it? 353 00:16:47,325 --> 00:16:49,325 I think desire has a lot to do with it. 354 00:16:49,885 --> 00:16:52,165 I think if you want to do it, I don't think it's, 355 00:16:52,365 --> 00:16:54,365 I don't think it's, uh, it's not difficult. 356 00:16:54,705 --> 00:16:56,085 You require stamina. 357 00:16:56,385 --> 00:16:58,765 You require, you know, require openness. 358 00:16:59,205 --> 00:17:02,605 I, as I was saying, in, in common, I would think that 359 00:17:03,515 --> 00:17:07,125 it's the desire of the practitioner, the per they, 360 00:17:07,395 --> 00:17:09,445 they would, they don't want to be anywhere else. 361 00:17:09,515 --> 00:17:10,965 They the what you, 362 00:17:10,965 --> 00:17:15,845 because the rewards for you as an individual are huge. 363 00:17:17,265 --> 00:17:21,725 You the, there's a, you go on a process of rich discovery. 364 00:17:22,355 --> 00:17:25,125 Like I, like I'm saying, I, I feel that the people 365 00:17:25,125 --> 00:17:28,365 that I want to work with, they are rega 366 00:17:28,395 --> 00:17:31,685 what they're doing in that is an artistic endeavor. 367 00:17:31,795 --> 00:17:33,885 Yeah. Just like any other artistic endeavor. 368 00:17:33,885 --> 00:17:36,125 And what you need to do is you need to, 369 00:17:36,745 --> 00:17:38,125 you need to see what's there. 370 00:17:38,225 --> 00:17:39,765 You are making something with, 371 00:17:39,955 --> 00:17:41,645 with the people who are in that room. 372 00:17:41,915 --> 00:17:44,325 What you are looking for is, they're unique. Yeah. 373 00:17:44,395 --> 00:17:46,405 They're unique characteristics. 374 00:17:47,105 --> 00:17:50,165 And you need to have an interest in people and, and, 375 00:17:50,185 --> 00:17:53,085 and an openness, um, to learn both ways. 376 00:17:53,245 --> 00:17:56,085 I mean, all of our facilitators start with us as volunteers. 377 00:17:56,465 --> 00:17:59,085 And you can usually see within about three seconds if they 378 00:17:59,085 --> 00:18:01,045 walk into the studio, if it's gonna work or not, 379 00:18:01,045 --> 00:18:03,245 because the volunteer will walk in 380 00:18:03,245 --> 00:18:04,405 and right away it'll be like, oh, 381 00:18:04,405 --> 00:18:06,085 that's really interesting what they're doing. 382 00:18:06,905 --> 00:18:10,565 Um, flexibility is really also, don't come in with a set. 383 00:18:10,565 --> 00:18:11,845 This is what we're going to do. 384 00:18:11,985 --> 00:18:14,445 You've gotta constantly be, as you said, 385 00:18:14,445 --> 00:18:16,205 reading the room, what can I change? 386 00:18:16,305 --> 00:18:18,605 You have to be willing to be flexible. Yeah. 387 00:18:18,665 --> 00:18:20,645 So there has, and the desire is really important. 388 00:18:21,275 --> 00:18:24,245 Cost, I'm gonna say that there is a cost, um, 389 00:18:24,245 --> 00:18:26,805 because obviously if you're working with one of our artists, 390 00:18:26,905 --> 00:18:29,245 you've got the artist, but you've got their facilitator 391 00:18:29,785 --> 00:18:31,125 and you've got the organization. 392 00:18:31,905 --> 00:18:34,085 Um, someone said to me the other day, 393 00:18:34,395 --> 00:18:36,765 your budget is a reflection of your ethics. 394 00:18:37,065 --> 00:18:40,685 If you want to do this work, and it's hugely rewarding 395 00:18:40,865 --> 00:18:42,925 and it's great, and it's what should be done, 396 00:18:43,435 --> 00:18:44,965 then you have to invest in it. 397 00:18:44,965 --> 00:18:47,325 Mm-Hmm. And what doesn't work is if you're doing it 398 00:18:47,325 --> 00:18:50,005 as a tick box exercise, if you just say, well, I'm, 399 00:18:50,005 --> 00:18:51,885 you know, I need to be working with disabled people, 400 00:18:51,905 --> 00:18:53,365 so I'm going to get these people in. 401 00:18:53,395 --> 00:18:56,525 That doesn't work. And, and our artists can tell Mm-Hmm. 402 00:18:56,715 --> 00:18:58,045 They really can tell. Yeah. 403 00:18:58,285 --> 00:19:00,285 I think you can. And I mean, you, 404 00:19:00,345 --> 00:19:01,885 you are chatting about cost. 405 00:19:02,905 --> 00:19:05,125 Um, I mean, if we're talking about working 406 00:19:05,155 --> 00:19:09,325 with other organizations, how, how do you work with them 407 00:19:10,105 --> 00:19:12,045 to encourage them to be more inclusive? 408 00:19:13,465 --> 00:19:17,535 Um, ooh, by steal? 409 00:19:18,115 --> 00:19:21,575 Um, not really. Do you know, actually, I, I can, I can say, 410 00:19:21,575 --> 00:19:24,775 and it's been a really, I don't know, since Covid, 411 00:19:25,215 --> 00:19:26,575 I feel the world has opened up. 412 00:19:27,035 --> 00:19:28,535 And I think everyone went away 413 00:19:28,535 --> 00:19:31,135 and thought, I think everyone got the idea of what it's like 414 00:19:31,135 --> 00:19:33,775 to be isolated and not be included in things. 415 00:19:34,075 --> 00:19:36,135 And it feels to me like there's been a big shift. 416 00:19:36,335 --> 00:19:38,855 I mean, yes, of course there will always be people in 417 00:19:38,855 --> 00:19:40,935 organizations that haven't done the shift. 418 00:19:40,995 --> 00:19:43,095 But for me, I've been really encouraged 419 00:19:43,095 --> 00:19:44,135 in the last few years. 420 00:19:44,755 --> 00:19:45,815 Um, and I, 421 00:19:45,995 --> 00:19:49,255 and also what I'm getting a lot less is people who are, 422 00:19:49,275 --> 00:19:51,415 who are saying, oh, well, we already know what we're doing. 423 00:19:51,765 --> 00:19:53,935 There's a lot more of, well, we can learn from you 424 00:19:53,935 --> 00:19:56,135 and you can learn from us, which is really good. 425 00:19:56,655 --> 00:19:59,015 I think that's true. I think we had to do 426 00:19:59,595 --> 00:20:01,215 so much stuff differently. 427 00:20:01,555 --> 00:20:04,695 You know, so much was thrown up in the air, 428 00:20:04,835 --> 00:20:07,495 and I think we certainly as an organization, 429 00:20:07,495 --> 00:20:10,575 we're determined to have a response and a presence 430 00:20:10,595 --> 00:20:11,655 and, and want to do things. 431 00:20:11,875 --> 00:20:15,575 And Yeah. It meant Lent to, led to a lot 432 00:20:15,575 --> 00:20:17,935 of very good conversations. 433 00:20:18,615 --> 00:20:20,295 I, I love that thing. What did you say? 434 00:20:20,325 --> 00:20:21,655 Your budget is a reflection. It 435 00:20:21,655 --> 00:20:23,055 Is a reflection of your ethics. Yes, I 436 00:20:23,055 --> 00:20:24,055 Think so. And that's brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. 437 00:20:24,215 --> 00:20:26,575 And it does, I I, I would say that I, 438 00:20:27,815 --> 00:20:32,295 I would love more people to know about how fantastic 439 00:20:33,525 --> 00:20:37,175 this work is, because I would love to have more people. 440 00:20:38,015 --> 00:20:40,215 I, I'd love to have, you know, your, 441 00:20:40,595 --> 00:20:42,135 the limits of what you can do. 442 00:20:42,955 --> 00:20:45,415 You are limited by the number of practitioners 443 00:20:45,475 --> 00:20:47,405 of really skilled people. 444 00:20:47,585 --> 00:20:50,765 And you do need, you need, you need really skilled people. 445 00:20:51,025 --> 00:20:52,645 And that's limited. And, you know, and I, 446 00:20:52,665 --> 00:20:56,565 and I think part of that is about showing people 447 00:20:57,505 --> 00:20:59,565 how fantastic this, this work is. 448 00:20:59,665 --> 00:21:01,485 You know, so the people, you know, 449 00:21:01,485 --> 00:21:03,285 more people want to be in that room. 450 00:21:03,705 --> 00:21:05,725 If someone is listening to this now 451 00:21:06,025 --> 00:21:09,125 and they've never come across anything that you do, why, 452 00:21:09,265 --> 00:21:10,845 why should they do it right now? 453 00:21:10,875 --> 00:21:13,365 Like, I'm just trying to get out of you. Like I, yeah. 454 00:21:13,465 --> 00:21:15,125 I'd love some action points of like, 455 00:21:15,675 --> 00:21:17,125 It's their, well, it's their right. 456 00:21:17,155 --> 00:21:19,765 Yeah. Yeah. For start, it's absolutely their right. 457 00:21:19,905 --> 00:21:22,405 And I would say, um, 458 00:21:23,875 --> 00:21:28,355 I would say the arts are just a hugely, 459 00:21:29,055 --> 00:21:31,515 you know, the, the benefits of engaging 460 00:21:31,945 --> 00:21:34,355 with the arts are just so manifold. 461 00:21:34,355 --> 00:21:37,275 You get to ex, you know, you, it's a creative, 462 00:21:38,355 --> 00:21:41,195 collaborative, uh, validating experience. 463 00:21:41,295 --> 00:21:45,195 You get to you, you know, you get to put yourself into it. 464 00:21:45,195 --> 00:21:47,675 And sometimes, you know, for a lot of the people 465 00:21:47,675 --> 00:21:50,275 that we are working with, they have been made 466 00:21:50,275 --> 00:21:51,795 to feel quite invisible. 467 00:21:52,335 --> 00:21:55,235 And this is a way of going, Hey, I'm here who I am. 468 00:21:55,385 --> 00:21:58,635 This is, you know, your people seeing you, 469 00:21:58,775 --> 00:22:02,955 and just you've had parents who've, you know, 470 00:22:03,105 --> 00:22:07,915 literally been in tears going, I never expected to see 471 00:22:08,655 --> 00:22:10,315 my child on a stage. 472 00:22:10,815 --> 00:22:13,755 You know, being that, you know? Yeah. 473 00:22:13,895 --> 00:22:17,995 You know, and that if you wanted any additional 474 00:22:17,995 --> 00:22:19,395 justification Yeah. 475 00:22:19,575 --> 00:22:22,315 For doing it, it's, it's, it's right there. Yeah. 476 00:22:22,435 --> 00:22:24,275 I, I was gonna say, what we always have, 477 00:22:24,275 --> 00:22:26,155 there's always a wonderful moment with someone 478 00:22:26,175 --> 00:22:29,835 who joins our studio, who the first exhibition we have, um, 479 00:22:29,935 --> 00:22:33,195 and their work is on the wall, and their families come in 480 00:22:33,195 --> 00:22:35,315 and they run over and show their families. 481 00:22:35,335 --> 00:22:37,035 And, you know, at that moment, first of all, 482 00:22:37,035 --> 00:22:39,835 they've relabeled themselves as an artist, 483 00:22:40,215 --> 00:22:43,395 but also families labeled them as an artist too. 484 00:22:43,935 --> 00:22:47,795 Um, and it, it, you know, for people who, with families, 485 00:22:47,825 --> 00:22:49,635 it's often about, how do I solve this problem? 486 00:22:49,855 --> 00:22:52,675 How do I organize this for them to suddenly see them in, 487 00:22:52,675 --> 00:22:55,995 in a different brand as an artist is really amazing. 488 00:22:56,355 --> 00:22:57,995 I love that. A different brand. Yeah. 489 00:22:58,135 --> 00:23:00,555 But also, as you said, you know, being an artist, uh, 490 00:23:00,675 --> 00:23:03,435 I mean, when we say develop practice, that can be anything. 491 00:23:03,435 --> 00:23:04,955 That could be a personal practice 492 00:23:04,955 --> 00:23:06,795 that's just about self-expression. 493 00:23:06,865 --> 00:23:08,035 It's about wellbeing. 494 00:23:08,455 --> 00:23:11,195 And going back to what you said about why, well, 495 00:23:11,215 --> 00:23:13,595 why not everyone else is able to Totally. 496 00:23:14,155 --> 00:23:15,235 I Agree. And also 497 00:23:15,355 --> 00:23:17,475 because our culture is, 498 00:23:19,125 --> 00:23:21,115 would be so much richer. 499 00:23:21,115 --> 00:23:24,075 Yeah. If, you know, our culture at the moment is, 500 00:23:24,515 --> 00:23:26,035 I wouldn't say it's narrow, but it's, 501 00:23:26,065 --> 00:23:27,515 it's narrower than it should be. 502 00:23:27,665 --> 00:23:28,915 Yeah. It really is. And, 503 00:23:28,915 --> 00:23:31,115 and, you know, it's, it's a sort of perceptual shift. 504 00:23:31,235 --> 00:23:32,995 I think people look 505 00:23:33,095 --> 00:23:35,875 and say, oh, this, this is art over here. 506 00:23:35,875 --> 00:23:38,955 And you go, no, I'm sorry. You are profoundly wrong. 507 00:23:39,175 --> 00:23:42,435 You know, you have been conditioned to think that that's, 508 00:23:42,815 --> 00:23:44,155 that's all art can be. 509 00:23:44,215 --> 00:23:46,725 No. Or all theater can be, or all music can 510 00:23:46,785 --> 00:23:47,785 Be. It's also another voice at 511 00:23:47,785 --> 00:23:48,205 the table, 512 00:23:48,205 --> 00:23:50,805 because, you know, we've talked about the intersectionality. 513 00:23:50,965 --> 00:23:52,165 I mean, there are debates going on 514 00:23:52,165 --> 00:23:53,845 about all sorts of things. Mm-Hmm. 515 00:23:54,515 --> 00:23:57,205 Okay. Then both. What are the differences 516 00:23:57,715 --> 00:24:01,205 between inclusive practice and specialist delivery? 517 00:24:01,945 --> 00:24:03,805 And what are the merits of each? 518 00:24:04,565 --> 00:24:05,775 Does anyone wanna take that one? 519 00:24:08,475 --> 00:24:12,455 Sheryl? See, I was gonna say again, it's, you see, 520 00:24:12,455 --> 00:24:14,495 for me, inclusive practice is the big one. 521 00:24:14,645 --> 00:24:17,135 That that's the one about focusing in on people 522 00:24:17,135 --> 00:24:20,655 and taking away the barriers for me, um, specialist 523 00:24:21,295 --> 00:24:23,175 practice is, again, it's a tool. 524 00:24:23,395 --> 00:24:28,295 One of the ways that you have inclusion is that you have 525 00:24:30,165 --> 00:24:31,915 these special things that you have to do. 526 00:24:31,915 --> 00:24:34,555 Something that that's specific to a person is specific 527 00:24:34,575 --> 00:24:37,515 to a con a, a, a, a context. So I, 528 00:24:37,555 --> 00:24:39,395 I would, I was gonna say, I, I think 529 00:24:40,215 --> 00:24:42,275 whilst I understand why yeah. 530 00:24:42,275 --> 00:24:44,395 Sometimes it's useful to have this, I, I think 531 00:24:44,395 --> 00:24:47,235 that in inclusive practice, more about the principles Yeah. 532 00:24:47,255 --> 00:24:48,675 Of what you are applying and, 533 00:24:48,775 --> 00:24:51,875 and specialist practice is sometimes it's the stuff 534 00:24:51,875 --> 00:24:53,755 that you might need to bring in. 535 00:24:53,755 --> 00:24:56,515 Yeah. You know, that to facilitate that, you know, 536 00:24:56,515 --> 00:25:00,995 sometimes, you know, we, we were, so, for instance, 537 00:25:00,995 --> 00:25:03,795 in a recent project, we made the discovery 538 00:25:04,055 --> 00:25:05,955 and, you know, we were able to do this 539 00:25:05,955 --> 00:25:10,675 because of money that using film, some of our, some of the, 540 00:25:11,015 --> 00:25:15,795 uh, uh, pupils with which we were working weren't able 541 00:25:15,895 --> 00:25:17,835 to be in front of an audience. 542 00:25:18,335 --> 00:25:21,755 It caused, they, they would get very, very stressed, 543 00:25:22,815 --> 00:25:26,795 but their per, you know, their performances were amazing. 544 00:25:27,255 --> 00:25:28,915 So we were able to use, you know, 545 00:25:29,255 --> 00:25:31,355 having them away from a big crowd, 546 00:25:31,375 --> 00:25:33,715 but spending an hour recording their performances 547 00:25:33,735 --> 00:25:34,915 and then, you know, 548 00:25:34,975 --> 00:25:37,235 and then making that part of the, 549 00:25:37,455 --> 00:25:41,395 of the whole theatrical whole, um, that, 550 00:25:42,175 --> 00:25:45,435 you know, that kind of specialist approach in needing those, 551 00:25:45,495 --> 00:25:47,035 you know, those extra tools, 552 00:25:47,585 --> 00:25:49,795 that extra thought about how we might do that. 553 00:25:50,375 --> 00:25:53,155 Um, yeah. That's, that's useful. Yeah. 554 00:25:53,175 --> 00:25:57,315 You talking about special specialist practice, we, 555 00:25:57,415 --> 00:25:59,155 we use music a lot. 556 00:25:59,155 --> 00:26:01,995 Yeah. Because that's, that's a re you know, so for instance, 557 00:26:01,995 --> 00:26:04,235 again, going back to Macbeth, we had the song Double, 558 00:26:04,235 --> 00:26:05,395 double Toil and Trouble. 559 00:26:05,855 --> 00:26:07,035 It was, you know, 560 00:26:07,035 --> 00:26:09,235 and we used it, it worked on a lot of different levels. 561 00:26:09,345 --> 00:26:11,675 Some people were able to respond to the text 562 00:26:11,675 --> 00:26:14,355 and it within the school, but it was, you know, it had, 563 00:26:14,655 --> 00:26:17,475 it had a lot of, uh, actions that went with it. 564 00:26:17,475 --> 00:26:20,195 Other people we had, um, you know, some 565 00:26:20,195 --> 00:26:22,235 of the text was signed, so we were able to do that. 566 00:26:22,615 --> 00:26:25,075 But it was also, there was this sort of chanted response 567 00:26:25,335 --> 00:26:28,755 and so on, and the whole, uh, so it, it gave lots 568 00:26:28,755 --> 00:26:32,235 of different, but, you know, so it gave lots 569 00:26:32,355 --> 00:26:33,635 of different points of access. 570 00:26:34,255 --> 00:26:37,675 Um, but it, again, that particular text, the double, 571 00:26:37,675 --> 00:26:41,115 double toll and trouble, you know, which is the witches 572 00:26:41,765 --> 00:26:45,365 spell, also meant that everybody in 573 00:26:45,365 --> 00:26:48,045 that room was getting a sort of taste 574 00:26:48,145 --> 00:26:51,485 or a sense of that, a central part of the play as well. 575 00:26:51,485 --> 00:26:53,845 You've got the Crown, but you've also got, uh, 576 00:26:53,845 --> 00:26:55,485 you've got the magic as well. 577 00:26:55,585 --> 00:26:56,845 So again, there was that sort of thing. 578 00:26:56,865 --> 00:27:00,325 So yeah, specialist practice in terms of, you know, things, 579 00:27:00,665 --> 00:27:04,445 pe you know, practitioners with additional skills, uh, 580 00:27:04,915 --> 00:27:06,165 that they're able to bring. 581 00:27:06,585 --> 00:27:10,485 But, you know, so again, it's about, um, taking, you know, 582 00:27:10,485 --> 00:27:13,165 what you have, trying to think, okay, how am I gonna do it? 583 00:27:13,185 --> 00:27:14,925 But then really focusing in on that person 584 00:27:14,945 --> 00:27:16,765 and say, how do I draw that person out? 585 00:27:16,765 --> 00:27:18,765 How do I draw their creativity out? 586 00:27:19,025 --> 00:27:20,565 That's where the inclusion comes. 587 00:27:20,635 --> 00:27:22,325 It's, it's that, that approach 588 00:27:22,395 --> 00:27:24,205 that I am gonna make this possible. 589 00:27:24,325 --> 00:27:26,645 I mean, this is what I bore everyone with constantly. 590 00:27:26,885 --> 00:27:28,445 'cause they come in and say, how are we gonna do this? 591 00:27:28,465 --> 00:27:30,165 And I'm like, okay, well, how are we gonna make 592 00:27:30,165 --> 00:27:31,565 it possible? Yeah. 593 00:27:31,565 --> 00:27:33,405 Yeah. Sheryl, Luke, thank you 594 00:27:33,425 --> 00:27:34,685 so much for being on the podcast. 595 00:27:35,135 --> 00:27:36,525 Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. 596 00:27:36,645 --> 00:27:38,165 I can honestly say it's been a 597 00:27:38,165 --> 00:27:39,725 real pleasure. Thank you so much 598 00:27:39,745 --> 00:27:40,745 For having us. Yeah. Thank 599 00:27:40,745 --> 00:27:43,125 you guys. Fabulous insights. 600 00:27:43,915 --> 00:27:46,645 Stay tuned for part two after this testimonial. 601 00:27:48,385 --> 00:27:49,725 Hi, my name is Leoni Jackson. 602 00:27:50,085 --> 00:27:52,445 I have dark, curly hair where I wear glasses, 603 00:27:52,445 --> 00:27:53,965 currently wearing a blue dress. 604 00:27:54,945 --> 00:27:56,845 I'm a teacher at Broadfield Primary School. 605 00:27:56,945 --> 00:27:58,525 I'm currently based in year five. 606 00:27:59,085 --> 00:28:01,005 I have, uh, a few roles around the schools. 607 00:28:01,385 --> 00:28:04,125 I'm the computing lead, the lead of the, um, 608 00:28:04,265 --> 00:28:05,565 for design and technology. 609 00:28:05,865 --> 00:28:07,605 And I'm also the head of year five at the moment. 610 00:28:08,825 --> 00:28:11,725 The thing that I love most about the primary Shakespeare 611 00:28:11,725 --> 00:28:14,085 project is that every single child gets 612 00:28:14,185 --> 00:28:15,365 the chance to get involved. 613 00:28:15,665 --> 00:28:17,125 So we're a three form entry school. 614 00:28:17,125 --> 00:28:18,405 There are three year-five classes, 615 00:28:18,865 --> 00:28:21,765 and then we also have children from our ASC provision. 616 00:28:21,985 --> 00:28:26,365 So our autism, um, specialist, um, unit provision. 617 00:28:26,625 --> 00:28:28,725 And they normally come into their mainstream 618 00:28:28,725 --> 00:28:29,805 classroom for essence. 619 00:28:30,225 --> 00:28:32,365 So those children also have the opportunity 620 00:28:32,425 --> 00:28:33,645 to participate in the project. 621 00:28:33,705 --> 00:28:36,485 And it's been great to see through the workshop 622 00:28:36,705 --> 00:28:39,085 and the lessons, how their confidence have grown. 623 00:28:39,965 --> 00:28:41,725 Children in general, I feel like they're, 624 00:28:41,725 --> 00:28:42,725 they're quite sensitive 625 00:28:42,745 --> 00:28:45,765 and they, they see things they realize more than you think 626 00:28:45,765 --> 00:28:48,965 they do, and that feeling of being excluded, 627 00:28:49,185 --> 00:28:50,485 it really sits with them. 628 00:28:50,945 --> 00:28:53,165 So they, they see, they see the fact that, oh, 629 00:28:53,165 --> 00:28:54,365 there's a certain group of children 630 00:28:54,365 --> 00:28:56,165 that always get chosen to do this thing. 631 00:28:56,465 --> 00:28:58,925 But when it's everyone, then you suddenly, you take, 632 00:28:59,145 --> 00:29:00,725 you take, you take all of that away. 633 00:29:00,985 --> 00:29:02,925 And I think as a teacher, especially 634 00:29:02,925 --> 00:29:04,965 with our philosophy in our school, we always start 635 00:29:04,965 --> 00:29:06,045 with inclusion in mind. 636 00:29:06,515 --> 00:29:08,645 Inclusion doesn't cost anything. It's free. 637 00:29:09,705 --> 00:29:13,845 As a teacher, the thing that stood out for me the most 638 00:29:13,905 --> 00:29:16,525 during the performance day was that you couldn't tell 639 00:29:16,585 --> 00:29:17,605 who was who on stage. 640 00:29:18,225 --> 00:29:19,605 So their ability didn't matter, 641 00:29:19,605 --> 00:29:20,725 didn't matter if they were EAL, 642 00:29:20,835 --> 00:29:23,125 they didn't matter if they had, um, SEN needs, 643 00:29:23,155 --> 00:29:25,045 because none of that was shown on stage. 644 00:29:25,045 --> 00:29:26,485 And that's down to the hard work 645 00:29:26,505 --> 00:29:29,085 of those instructors from primary Shakespeare as well 646 00:29:29,085 --> 00:29:30,325 as the adults in school. 647 00:29:30,325 --> 00:29:31,325 That's helped out as well. 648 00:29:32,105 --> 00:29:35,005 So it's, it's been a wonderful experience, thus for, 649 00:29:35,185 --> 00:29:36,285 for all our pupils. 650 00:29:38,195 --> 00:29:41,205 That was such a great testament to inclusive practice. 651 00:29:42,355 --> 00:29:45,245 Welcome back to part two of this conversation 652 00:29:45,335 --> 00:29:48,125 where we will dive deeper into the nuanced realm 653 00:29:48,385 --> 00:29:49,645 of inclusive practice. 654 00:29:50,745 --> 00:29:53,885 In this part of our journey, we'll discuss further 655 00:29:54,385 --> 00:29:57,685 how organizations can strive to towards inclusive practice 656 00:29:58,345 --> 00:30:01,685 and find the solutions to ensure inclusion is meaningful. 657 00:30:02,365 --> 00:30:05,445 I am now joined by John McNeely, youth 658 00:30:05,585 --> 00:30:09,205 and Community Services Manager at Action on Disability 659 00:30:09,625 --> 00:30:13,885 and Jossy Lightfoot, CEO of London Chamber Orchestra. 660 00:30:14,115 --> 00:30:15,565 Welcome. Thank you. 661 00:30:15,695 --> 00:30:17,445 Thank you so much for being with me, guys. 662 00:30:17,625 --> 00:30:20,405 So I always love to start, if you're okay 663 00:30:20,915 --> 00:30:23,725 with an audio description, your pronouns, 664 00:30:23,945 --> 00:30:25,645 and also a bit more about what you do. 665 00:30:25,705 --> 00:30:27,245 So Jossy, could you start for us? 666 00:30:27,795 --> 00:30:32,645 Sure. So, um, I'm of average height non-binary. 667 00:30:33,445 --> 00:30:37,645 I have blonde brownish, very short hair. I wear glasses. 668 00:30:38,845 --> 00:30:42,125 I am today wearing a gray jumper. 669 00:30:43,265 --> 00:30:46,845 And, um, my pronouns are preferred they them, 670 00:30:46,905 --> 00:30:51,165 but I also accept she her as that tends 671 00:30:51,165 --> 00:30:52,205 to be what people assume. 672 00:30:52,855 --> 00:30:57,565 Thank you so much. Uh, my name's John McNeely, 673 00:30:57,665 --> 00:31:00,445 and, um, I probably look like a pint of Guinness. 674 00:31:00,625 --> 00:31:04,525 Um, I've got a black jumper on with a sort of gray top. 675 00:31:05,225 --> 00:31:08,085 And, um, I've got a white beard. 676 00:31:08,285 --> 00:31:10,165 I kind of look a bit gray and white all over. 677 00:31:10,425 --> 00:31:14,045 Um, and I'm wearing glasses and I'm gesticulate and, sorry. 678 00:31:14,625 --> 00:31:16,685 Um, I'm the youth 679 00:31:16,685 --> 00:31:18,965 and Community services manager at Action on Disability, 680 00:31:19,305 --> 00:31:22,205 and we're a West London charity, uh, 681 00:31:22,385 --> 00:31:25,045 who are a DPO Disabled People's Organization. 682 00:31:25,145 --> 00:31:27,525 So the work that we do is led by disabled people, 683 00:31:27,525 --> 00:31:29,005 including young, disabled people. 684 00:31:29,585 --> 00:31:32,365 Lovely. And Jossy, did you tell us a bit more about your, 685 00:31:32,655 --> 00:31:34,565 where you are from and what you do? Uh, 686 00:31:34,665 --> 00:31:37,805 So yeah, I'm the CEO of the London Chamber Orchestra. 687 00:31:38,185 --> 00:31:41,405 Um, we run an education program, 688 00:31:41,535 --> 00:31:44,565 which is roughly about 50% of what we do. 689 00:31:44,585 --> 00:31:47,285 The other 50% being performing Mm-Hmm 690 00:31:47,385 --> 00:31:48,385 Mm-Hmm. And, 691 00:31:48,385 --> 00:31:52,565 and Jossy, you have two autistic children, don't you? 692 00:31:53,285 --> 00:31:56,605 I have one autistic child who is, 693 00:31:56,785 --> 00:31:58,445 has also got cerebral palsy. 694 00:31:58,945 --> 00:32:02,465 Um, the 2-year-old is just bonkers. 695 00:32:05,385 --> 00:32:09,505 I love it. Oh, what are the obstacles you have found 696 00:32:09,615 --> 00:32:12,345 regarding inclusive practice for your children then? 697 00:32:13,175 --> 00:32:15,865 Well, for me it's been a really interesting journey 698 00:32:15,865 --> 00:32:20,345 because prior to having children, I used to work, um, 699 00:32:20,565 --> 00:32:23,305 as a musician doing a fair bit of outreach 700 00:32:23,445 --> 00:32:27,865 and education, uh, sometimes with, um, special schools 701 00:32:28,085 --> 00:32:31,145 and sometimes, uh, just with huge groups 702 00:32:31,245 --> 00:32:33,225 of children from all walks of life. 703 00:32:33,325 --> 00:32:37,385 So I had quite a bit of experience with, um, a lot 704 00:32:37,385 --> 00:32:41,045 of organizations who provide support for, 705 00:32:41,305 --> 00:32:42,605 for a variety of people. 706 00:32:43,345 --> 00:32:47,725 Uh, but I never really understood too much about what 707 00:32:47,725 --> 00:32:50,045 that means for your, for your daily lives. 708 00:32:50,145 --> 00:32:54,485 And we've been very generous in giving our kids a very 709 00:32:55,155 --> 00:32:57,285 unusual lifestyle. 710 00:32:57,985 --> 00:33:00,725 I'm in a non-binary civil partnership. 711 00:33:01,305 --> 00:33:04,645 We have two children and we carried one each. 712 00:33:05,465 --> 00:33:09,205 Um, so there's not really very much about their life 713 00:33:09,235 --> 00:33:11,925 that fits with societal norms. 714 00:33:12,105 --> 00:33:16,645 So from day one, really, we've had lots 715 00:33:16,645 --> 00:33:19,445 of experiences, and to be fair, not many 716 00:33:19,445 --> 00:33:21,605 of them have been hugely negative. 717 00:33:21,745 --> 00:33:24,565 But there's so many aspects of our life 718 00:33:24,615 --> 00:33:26,485 where our differences are highlighted. 719 00:33:26,665 --> 00:33:29,965 For example, even just filling out forms for the kids. 720 00:33:29,965 --> 00:33:32,445 There's, there's a mother box and a father box. 721 00:33:33,145 --> 00:33:37,885 Um, and then, uh, moving, you know, going 722 00:33:37,885 --> 00:33:41,445 through schooling system for my son, starting to understand 723 00:33:42,265 --> 00:33:44,205 how cerebral palsy 724 00:33:44,205 --> 00:33:48,285 and a SD uh, affect him when he's in environments 725 00:33:48,285 --> 00:33:49,725 that don't suit him. 726 00:33:50,435 --> 00:33:52,805 Getting to know that for ourselves at home, 727 00:33:53,065 --> 00:33:57,525 but also, uh, helping him to be able to choose what he wants 728 00:33:57,525 --> 00:33:58,645 to pursue in life. 729 00:33:59,115 --> 00:34:02,685 Yeah. And are these learnings reflected in the delivery 730 00:34:03,105 --> 00:34:05,565 of London Chamber Orchestra, would you say? 731 00:34:06,675 --> 00:34:11,525 Massively, um, uh, alongside my personal journey of, 732 00:34:11,545 --> 00:34:14,205 of understanding how inclusion can affect people 733 00:34:14,205 --> 00:34:17,765 individually, uh, I bring a lot of that to, 734 00:34:18,545 --> 00:34:20,325 to the practice in the orchestra. 735 00:34:20,345 --> 00:34:25,045 But I think most of it is to do with my mindset of, 736 00:34:25,265 --> 00:34:29,045 of decision making, the process of discussion, who we 737 00:34:29,835 --> 00:34:31,205 have discussions with, 738 00:34:32,265 --> 00:34:35,005 how many people we involve in decision making 739 00:34:35,065 --> 00:34:38,165 and the, the diversity that they, of their, 740 00:34:38,165 --> 00:34:39,485 of their back backgrounds. 741 00:34:39,585 --> 00:34:43,485 So it's really important that we consult with a, a number 742 00:34:43,485 --> 00:34:46,285 of different people in all sorts of walks of life in order 743 00:34:46,285 --> 00:34:49,205 to be able to approach our inclusive practice, 744 00:34:49,355 --> 00:34:52,085 both internally with our volunteers 745 00:34:52,345 --> 00:34:55,165 and with the people that we're delivering our program to. 746 00:34:56,025 --> 00:34:59,285 Um, so that we can, we can confidently go in 747 00:34:59,285 --> 00:35:02,025 and say, you know, we, we've done our research, 748 00:35:02,025 --> 00:35:05,145 we've done our work, we understand, you know, 749 00:35:05,145 --> 00:35:06,745 where we're coming from and what it is 750 00:35:06,745 --> 00:35:08,345 that we're hoping to achieve. Mm-Hmm. 751 00:35:09,205 --> 00:35:12,425 And, and for both of you then, when can inclusive 752 00:35:12,945 --> 00:35:14,545 practice feel tokenistic? 753 00:35:15,085 --> 00:35:19,065 And how can you avoid it feeling? So what would you say? 754 00:35:19,605 --> 00:35:24,025 Um, well, from my experience, um, I, I guess, 755 00:35:24,485 --> 00:35:27,025 um, inclusion as a token 756 00:35:27,085 --> 00:35:31,425 or, you know, including young disabled people, um, can 757 00:35:32,215 --> 00:35:36,345 feel tokenistic if there is no, uh, communication, 758 00:35:36,365 --> 00:35:39,045 if there isn't time offered to listen 759 00:35:39,185 --> 00:35:42,605 to young disabled people as to what it is they want 760 00:35:42,665 --> 00:35:44,325 to do in whatever setting. 761 00:35:45,105 --> 00:35:49,765 Um, quite often from my experience, um, uh, 762 00:35:50,125 --> 00:35:52,845 I will spend time with partner organizations 763 00:35:52,865 --> 00:35:55,805 or other organizations having these long conversations. 764 00:35:55,825 --> 00:35:58,445 And the ideas around including young, 765 00:35:58,685 --> 00:36:02,405 disabled people in their provision, um, is well-meaning, 766 00:36:02,465 --> 00:36:04,765 but quite often when you get to the practical delivery 767 00:36:04,785 --> 00:36:09,005 of something, what we will find is that those 768 00:36:09,615 --> 00:36:12,805 young disabled people are included in a venue, 769 00:36:13,265 --> 00:36:14,325 but segregated. 770 00:36:14,905 --> 00:36:19,005 And I think it might feel like to that organization, 771 00:36:19,005 --> 00:36:21,245 they are including young, disabled people, 772 00:36:21,265 --> 00:36:23,645 and it might represent inclusion to them, 773 00:36:24,145 --> 00:36:26,445 but in fact, they're still practicing segregation. 774 00:36:27,065 --> 00:36:29,925 And, um, that needs challenging. 775 00:36:30,065 --> 00:36:33,405 Um, and that can, that obviously is, 776 00:36:33,715 --> 00:36:35,285 it's not meaningful inclusion. 777 00:36:35,395 --> 00:36:38,325 It's not active inclusion, it's, uh, tokenism 778 00:36:38,705 --> 00:36:42,125 and, um, yeah, that, that's, that's a challenge. 779 00:36:42,785 --> 00:36:47,125 Um, I know that many, many organizations are, well-meaning, 780 00:36:47,345 --> 00:36:50,005 and they want to, uh, be inclusive, 781 00:36:50,105 --> 00:36:53,805 but if they're not resourced, have the time, 782 00:36:54,035 --> 00:36:55,485 prepare the time to listen to 783 00:36:55,485 --> 00:36:58,765 what it is young people want from them, then it, 784 00:36:58,865 --> 00:37:01,085 it does run the risk of being tokenistic. 785 00:37:02,225 --> 00:37:06,275 Were you joie Well, I just, John, your point about, um, 786 00:37:06,535 --> 00:37:09,875 the intention of inclusion becoming, uh, 787 00:37:10,545 --> 00:37:14,435 more about segregation is something that we come across 788 00:37:15,895 --> 00:37:18,995 an awful lot in the classical music industry. 789 00:37:19,295 --> 00:37:23,555 Um, there's such a 790 00:37:24,425 --> 00:37:25,955 difficult scenario at the moment 791 00:37:26,025 --> 00:37:29,675 with huge change in the industry where we are 792 00:37:30,835 --> 00:37:32,635 surrounded by the traditions and, 793 00:37:32,975 --> 00:37:36,405 and lots of people passionately trying 794 00:37:36,405 --> 00:37:37,885 to keep hold of those traditions. 795 00:37:37,985 --> 00:37:42,285 But ultimately, those traditions are, are non-inclusive. 796 00:37:42,435 --> 00:37:45,085 They are, they serve a very small number of people. 797 00:37:46,065 --> 00:37:48,405 Um, and so the, the, the effort, 798 00:37:48,425 --> 00:37:51,645 the very well-meaning effort to include people 799 00:37:51,825 --> 00:37:55,285 who cannot participate in a traditional performance 800 00:37:55,945 --> 00:37:58,885 as an audience member, is to 801 00:37:59,785 --> 00:38:02,805 put on a concert that's called a relaxed concert, 802 00:38:03,255 --> 00:38:05,485 which is effectively for everybody else. 803 00:38:05,705 --> 00:38:09,405 And to bring in my experience with my family into, 804 00:38:09,595 --> 00:38:13,005 into my profession, I had a, a about two years ago, 805 00:38:13,325 --> 00:38:18,285 I had a realization that my eldest child wouldn't 806 00:38:19,285 --> 00:38:22,045 actually be welcome in my industry. 807 00:38:22,625 --> 00:38:26,445 So there would not be a scenario where he would be able 808 00:38:26,445 --> 00:38:31,285 to go and see a concert, uh, in a way that he would, um, 809 00:38:31,545 --> 00:38:32,765 be allowed to be in that room. 810 00:38:32,785 --> 00:38:36,325 And that, for me was a, was just a huge bombshell. 811 00:38:36,325 --> 00:38:38,085 Just the idea that the industry 812 00:38:38,085 --> 00:38:41,085 that I've literally dedicated my entire life to 813 00:38:41,785 --> 00:38:45,325 is actually not welcoming to a, a huge number of people, 814 00:38:45,325 --> 00:38:47,165 including my own, my own kids. 815 00:38:47,345 --> 00:38:51,445 So the, the, the realization came from a very 816 00:38:52,495 --> 00:38:55,445 well-known festival, uh, which 817 00:38:56,135 --> 00:38:57,925 introduced a relaxed concert. 818 00:38:58,785 --> 00:39:01,805 Um, and out of the whole festival, 819 00:39:01,805 --> 00:39:03,005 there was one relaxed concert. 820 00:39:03,425 --> 00:39:07,525 And effectively what that meant was, if you 821 00:39:08,645 --> 00:39:11,555 don't feel welcome in a traditional concert environment, 822 00:39:11,665 --> 00:39:13,035 this is the concert for you. 823 00:39:13,995 --> 00:39:15,995 Everyone else can go to every other concert. 824 00:39:16,495 --> 00:39:21,435 And that, that massively confounds that segregation of, 825 00:39:21,495 --> 00:39:23,515 if we are providing for people's needs, 826 00:39:24,615 --> 00:39:29,355 we are separating them and we are creating this them 827 00:39:29,535 --> 00:39:32,755 and us environment where we, 828 00:39:33,015 --> 00:39:34,595 the us are looking at them 829 00:39:35,135 --> 00:39:38,155 and deciding how to, to bring them into us. 830 00:39:38,895 --> 00:39:43,475 Um, and it's, it's, yeah, like you say, John, it is a, 831 00:39:43,675 --> 00:39:45,715 a huge challenge, I think. Mm-Hmm. 832 00:39:46,455 --> 00:39:47,555 And so John, 833 00:39:48,735 --> 00:39:52,035 how do you at action on disability support others 834 00:39:52,215 --> 00:39:54,355 to provide inclusive opportunities? 835 00:39:55,455 --> 00:39:59,915 Um, we, you know, we're a sort of reputable, uh, 836 00:40:00,315 --> 00:40:02,875 disabled people's organization in West London, so, you know, 837 00:40:02,875 --> 00:40:03,875 work for disabled people. 838 00:40:03,875 --> 00:40:05,635 They come to us because they trust us. 839 00:40:06,375 --> 00:40:09,915 So, um, and they trust that we will be a voice for them, um, 840 00:40:10,095 --> 00:40:13,395 and advocate for their, uh, needs 841 00:40:13,695 --> 00:40:16,235 and their wants, um, and their aspirations. 842 00:40:17,175 --> 00:40:19,155 So organizations will come to us 843 00:40:19,175 --> 00:40:21,875 and it's, it's very much, you know, a blank p blank sheet 844 00:40:21,875 --> 00:40:24,195 of paper, what, you know, I guess what we need 845 00:40:24,195 --> 00:40:27,435 to find out is what do other organizations want to achieve? 846 00:40:27,545 --> 00:40:29,435 What do they want inclusion to look like? 847 00:40:30,055 --> 00:40:32,195 And from there we can build something. 848 00:40:32,195 --> 00:40:35,595 And I think part of that would be training access 849 00:40:35,615 --> 00:40:37,955 to either disability equality training. 850 00:40:38,695 --> 00:40:42,835 Uh, some organizations find it really helpful to have access 851 00:40:42,855 --> 00:40:44,995 to knowledge around the social model 852 00:40:44,995 --> 00:40:46,795 of disability rather than the medical model. 853 00:40:47,535 --> 00:40:50,995 Um, I think that can help, um, 854 00:40:51,265 --> 00:40:53,435 encourage inclusion, um, 855 00:40:53,975 --> 00:40:56,435 and, um, outreach support. 856 00:40:56,895 --> 00:40:59,715 You know, as I said, if we are going to endorse it 857 00:41:00,095 --> 00:41:02,835 as a disabled people's organization, we're, 858 00:41:02,835 --> 00:41:04,595 we're putting our reputation on the line. 859 00:41:04,615 --> 00:41:05,675 Mm. Uh, and 860 00:41:05,785 --> 00:41:06,785 Just to, sorry. Yeah, just 861 00:41:06,785 --> 00:41:08,235 to say, so it's the social model 862 00:41:08,235 --> 00:41:11,395 of disability means that the world around us needs 863 00:41:11,395 --> 00:41:13,915 to be fixed and not, not us as a disabled person. 864 00:41:14,255 --> 00:41:16,715 And the medical model kind of says the opposite, doesn't it? 865 00:41:16,945 --> 00:41:19,115 Yeah. So it's not focusing on the impairment, 866 00:41:19,115 --> 00:41:21,795 but actually the barriers that around that, that exist, 867 00:41:22,295 --> 00:41:23,475 it has to be a commitment. 868 00:41:23,775 --> 00:41:28,355 And, um, it, it can't just be, let's, you know, run this 869 00:41:28,455 --> 00:41:31,115 for, uh, 10 weeks and see how it goes. 870 00:41:31,465 --> 00:41:34,205 Obviously pilots are all good and well, uh, 871 00:41:34,425 --> 00:41:37,005 but there has to be a long-term commitment, 872 00:41:37,005 --> 00:41:38,845 and there has to be ongoing evaluation 873 00:41:38,865 --> 00:41:43,245 and feedback opportunities for young people to be heard in 874 00:41:43,245 --> 00:41:45,845 that process, um, so 875 00:41:45,845 --> 00:41:47,205 that we can understand its impact 876 00:41:47,205 --> 00:41:48,685 and whether it's working. And 877 00:41:49,065 --> 00:41:52,285 Are you shocked by some opportunities available 878 00:41:52,515 --> 00:41:55,325 that fall short on accessibility or an 879 00:41:55,325 --> 00:41:56,805 Inclusion No, no, no. 880 00:41:56,905 --> 00:41:58,765 I'm not shocked. Um, I'm, I'm, 881 00:41:58,905 --> 00:42:02,205 I'm always pleased when I hear, um, 882 00:42:03,785 --> 00:42:06,205 the, the sort of the desire to be more inclusive. 883 00:42:06,625 --> 00:42:09,845 But I, I guess it's some comments 884 00:42:09,915 --> 00:42:11,925 that I've heard today that have struck me. 885 00:42:12,225 --> 00:42:16,205 Um, it, it's like, um, people 886 00:42:16,885 --> 00:42:21,085 I guess don't really get through no fault of their own, 887 00:42:21,085 --> 00:42:22,645 they don't get disability, I guess, 888 00:42:22,775 --> 00:42:25,725 until disability presents itself to their lives. 889 00:42:26,625 --> 00:42:30,085 Um, so the world out there, 890 00:42:30,725 --> 00:42:32,965 although there's a good intention on many, 891 00:42:33,345 --> 00:42:36,405 on most people's part to do the right thing 892 00:42:36,405 --> 00:42:39,765 and be inclusive, it doesn't surprise me 893 00:42:40,315 --> 00:42:43,165 when you notice there is, you know, the, yeah, 894 00:42:43,195 --> 00:42:44,365 they fall quite short. 895 00:42:45,305 --> 00:42:47,525 Um, so yeah, it doesn't surprise me, 896 00:42:47,545 --> 00:42:49,765 but I think the intention is there, 897 00:42:49,785 --> 00:42:51,485 and I, I, that's a starting place 898 00:42:52,145 --> 00:42:54,445 and, you know, there are changes. 899 00:42:55,045 --> 00:42:59,525 I think something's happened, funders have listened, 900 00:42:59,865 --> 00:43:04,325 um, and, um, it seems to me that they have a much more 901 00:43:04,925 --> 00:43:07,565 considered approach to the way in which they fund 902 00:43:08,235 --> 00:43:09,885 organizations and charities. 903 00:43:10,105 --> 00:43:12,845 Um, you know, we've recently been successful, 904 00:43:13,365 --> 00:43:15,365 insecure in five years, funding from John Lyons, 905 00:43:15,365 --> 00:43:17,165 where I think if you're going to succeed, 906 00:43:17,755 --> 00:43:18,765 then you need time. 907 00:43:19,145 --> 00:43:23,045 Um, and five years is a decent amount of time 908 00:43:23,425 --> 00:43:24,965 to make sure that something happens. 909 00:43:25,635 --> 00:43:27,005 Funders need to give us time. 910 00:43:27,005 --> 00:43:29,565 Having more time from funders helps. 911 00:43:29,985 --> 00:43:34,205 And I think it's, you know, it seems to me, you know, 912 00:43:35,305 --> 00:43:38,005 all funders seem to be adapting the way in which they fund 913 00:43:38,005 --> 00:43:40,405 organizations and allowing for more time. 914 00:43:40,745 --> 00:43:43,565 So my assumption is whether it happened over covid or 915 00:43:43,565 --> 00:43:47,645 before, or the greater flexibility, it seems to me that 916 00:43:47,645 --> 00:43:50,765 that's working the way reporting or monitoring 917 00:43:50,765 --> 00:43:53,565 or evaluation the way it's fed back is changing. 918 00:43:54,165 --> 00:43:56,405 I think funders are becoming far more creative 919 00:43:56,985 --> 00:43:59,085 in the way they access the information 920 00:43:59,145 --> 00:44:01,805 or the impact of their funding. Mm. 921 00:44:02,585 --> 00:44:04,645 And both, this is a question for both of you. 922 00:44:04,785 --> 00:44:07,325 Why do you think organizations do not consider 923 00:44:07,435 --> 00:44:09,285 inclusive practice in their delivery? 924 00:44:09,905 --> 00:44:12,605 And how can we help them understand the value of it? 925 00:44:14,425 --> 00:44:18,005 So I think without sounding 926 00:44:19,395 --> 00:44:23,405 pessimistic, I think we are generations 927 00:44:24,395 --> 00:44:28,965 away from having a truly inclusive society. 928 00:44:29,745 --> 00:44:33,085 Uh, so to, to go into an organization 929 00:44:33,185 --> 00:44:37,765 and say, you know, you, your practices are not inclusive. 930 00:44:37,905 --> 00:44:39,405 You're not delivering your product 931 00:44:39,585 --> 00:44:43,925 or your service in an inclusive way is 932 00:44:45,235 --> 00:44:49,315 intervening at a stage, which is 933 00:44:49,945 --> 00:44:51,675 very late on in the process of that. 934 00:44:51,855 --> 00:44:54,155 And so, if you're going into an organization where 935 00:44:55,615 --> 00:44:58,235 the people who, at the top of that organization 936 00:44:58,945 --> 00:45:03,435 have lived a life where they've not been challenged by 937 00:45:05,005 --> 00:45:09,185 any sort of, um, barrier to do with any, 938 00:45:09,445 --> 00:45:13,425 any aspect of their life, um, it's, 939 00:45:13,615 --> 00:45:16,305 it's very difficult to say to them, oh, by the way, 940 00:45:16,305 --> 00:45:17,385 these things are really important 941 00:45:17,385 --> 00:45:19,585 because they've, they've been doing just fine. 942 00:45:19,585 --> 00:45:20,585 Everything's fine. 943 00:45:21,245 --> 00:45:23,985 So, so to present them with a challenge 944 00:45:23,985 --> 00:45:26,465 that they don't perceive to exist 945 00:45:27,485 --> 00:45:30,425 in their experience throughout their personal 946 00:45:30,645 --> 00:45:33,545 and professional life is, 947 00:45:33,645 --> 00:45:35,825 is just a very diff difficult concept 948 00:45:35,915 --> 00:45:38,105 where I think it's a lot, I think it's a lot to ask 949 00:45:38,105 --> 00:45:41,745 of an organization to all of a sudden prioritize, uh, uh, 950 00:45:42,335 --> 00:45:43,625 true inclusion. 951 00:45:44,245 --> 00:45:47,225 Um, and I think we've got many years, 952 00:45:47,245 --> 00:45:50,105 but I think as organizations like ours to, 953 00:45:50,245 --> 00:45:52,465 to go into schools and to work with schools, 954 00:45:52,465 --> 00:45:53,465 and to work with partners, 955 00:45:53,465 --> 00:45:56,505 and to work with, you know, charities like John Lines, who, 956 00:45:56,685 --> 00:46:00,585 who are on the same page and, and, and really develop 957 00:46:00,925 --> 00:46:04,625 and learn and expand those programs as much as possible, 958 00:46:04,645 --> 00:46:07,305 and then, you know, connect with the press, connect 959 00:46:07,305 --> 00:46:11,025 with the rest of the world, um, you can start 960 00:46:11,045 --> 00:46:14,945 to make the case that long term, every company will benefit 961 00:46:15,575 --> 00:46:17,785 from having an inclusive practice and, 962 00:46:17,965 --> 00:46:21,625 and the process of trying to make the case that 963 00:46:22,295 --> 00:46:25,145 it's profitable or that it's it's value for money 964 00:46:25,805 --> 00:46:28,985 or, um, that the, it, it's worth the investment. 965 00:46:29,965 --> 00:46:31,705 Um, the more we talk about it, 966 00:46:31,725 --> 00:46:34,185 the more we've got case studies of, of the success, 967 00:46:34,765 --> 00:46:37,385 the more we can show that having a diverse workforce, 968 00:46:37,665 --> 00:46:41,025 a diverse audience base or customer base, 969 00:46:41,845 --> 00:46:45,105 and then a diverse set of, uh, schools 970 00:46:45,105 --> 00:46:47,705 and organizations that you work with, only 971 00:46:48,265 --> 00:46:51,985 increases your ability as an organization to adapt. 972 00:46:52,055 --> 00:46:55,545 Well, you get a bigger audience, you get a bigger, um, 973 00:46:55,645 --> 00:46:57,265 wealth of experience and knowledge. 974 00:46:57,265 --> 00:46:59,945 And, and that's something that any 975 00:47:00,665 --> 00:47:02,705 industry leader in any industry will 976 00:47:02,705 --> 00:47:03,945 eventually get on board with. 977 00:47:04,005 --> 00:47:05,905 But they need, they need the proof. 978 00:47:05,925 --> 00:47:07,985 And I get that, you know, in my position, I need 979 00:47:07,985 --> 00:47:10,425 to understand that any money that we're spending is, 980 00:47:11,565 --> 00:47:12,705 is going to the right places 981 00:47:12,845 --> 00:47:14,305 and it's gonna achieve what we want to achieve. 982 00:47:14,405 --> 00:47:17,185 Mm-Hmm. You know, with different priorities, that 983 00:47:17,765 --> 00:47:20,025 is gonna be a, a different journey for everyone. 984 00:47:20,885 --> 00:47:23,705 Is there often an associated cost when it comes 985 00:47:23,725 --> 00:47:25,825 to implementing inclusive practice, 986 00:47:26,005 --> 00:47:29,065 or can things be done for free, do you think then? Uh, 987 00:47:29,525 --> 00:47:32,085 I, I think there's a fear that there's a cost, um, 988 00:47:32,625 --> 00:47:33,765 and, you know, 989 00:47:37,975 --> 00:47:40,125 everything costs, I guess, really. 990 00:47:40,345 --> 00:47:43,645 Uh, and then I guess maybe it's not necessarily about 991 00:47:44,105 --> 00:47:47,805 how much will it cost, but it's more about what will we, 992 00:47:48,225 --> 00:47:50,245 you know, gain together, you know, 993 00:47:50,245 --> 00:47:52,285 there'll be broader partnerships, people, 994 00:47:52,635 --> 00:47:55,045 hopefully the world will be a lot more inclusive and, 995 00:47:55,105 --> 00:47:57,445 and it won't be a question of cost, 996 00:47:57,545 --> 00:47:59,725 but, you know, that could be generations away. 997 00:48:00,045 --> 00:48:02,325 I think I'll go back, I'd go back to the point of when I, 998 00:48:02,565 --> 00:48:06,405 whenever our, the organizations that we work with 999 00:48:06,935 --> 00:48:09,685 raise the issue of cost, um, you know, 1000 00:48:10,815 --> 00:48:12,245 there is support out there. 1001 00:48:12,505 --> 00:48:16,165 Um, there is, you know, funding streams that you can access 1002 00:48:16,165 --> 00:48:18,525 to make sure that resources are in place. 1003 00:48:19,305 --> 00:48:22,685 But, and I've heard it a couple of times today as well, the, 1004 00:48:22,745 --> 00:48:24,805 the, the biggest cost is, 1005 00:48:24,825 --> 00:48:27,445 or the biggest expense is getting over that fear. 1006 00:48:27,675 --> 00:48:30,685 Yeah. You know, the attitude, ignorance, that's, that's, 1007 00:48:31,155 --> 00:48:33,125 that costs nothing, you know? Yeah. 1008 00:48:33,585 --> 00:48:37,045 And, and finally, finally, 1009 00:48:37,215 --> 00:48:40,045 where can people find out more about starting 1010 00:48:40,265 --> 00:48:42,325 or working on their inclusive practice? 1011 00:48:44,035 --> 00:48:48,805 Well, the, the organizations that, uh, we, um, 1012 00:48:50,305 --> 00:48:53,245 tap into, if you like, to inclusion London, um, 1013 00:48:53,245 --> 00:48:56,845 they're a good regional organization who make sure 1014 00:48:56,845 --> 00:49:00,565 that disabled people's organizations are being disabled, 1015 00:49:00,565 --> 00:49:01,605 people's organizations. 1016 00:49:02,405 --> 00:49:04,965 There's also the Alliance for Inclusive Education 1017 00:49:05,265 --> 00:49:09,285 who are a great, um, uh, support to, uh, 1018 00:49:09,915 --> 00:49:11,165 inclusive education. 1019 00:49:11,855 --> 00:49:13,845 Thank you. And Jossie, what about you? 1020 00:49:14,255 --> 00:49:16,005 Where can we go to find out more? 1021 00:49:16,945 --> 00:49:18,565 Uh, well, listening to this podcast 1022 00:49:19,385 --> 00:49:20,965 is a good start, right? 1023 00:49:21,385 --> 00:49:22,685 Finish all the episodes, 1024 00:49:22,905 --> 00:49:26,845 and then I think, um, you know, the, there's 1025 00:49:28,765 --> 00:49:32,265 the, the way that I experience meeting organizations and, 1026 00:49:32,285 --> 00:49:36,185 and getting to know people who work in areas that we need 1027 00:49:36,185 --> 00:49:38,905 to improve our practices in is, 1028 00:49:39,365 --> 00:49:42,865 is literally just getting out there, meeting people, going 1029 00:49:42,865 --> 00:49:47,505 to events, making sure that, um, you know, 1030 00:49:47,605 --> 00:49:51,665 we introduce ourselves in a way that shows our values 1031 00:49:51,845 --> 00:49:53,545 and our, our ethics on 1032 00:49:53,565 --> 00:49:56,905 and organically over time, we meet more 1033 00:49:56,905 --> 00:49:59,425 and more people who share those values in 1034 00:49:59,435 --> 00:50:01,105 ethos, um, with us. 1035 00:50:01,485 --> 00:50:04,985 And, and, you know, that just grows and grows and grows 1036 00:50:04,985 --> 00:50:07,665 and creating this network around you, which gives you that 1037 00:50:08,205 --> 00:50:10,905 safety net of knowing if you are going 1038 00:50:10,905 --> 00:50:12,265 to be facing a particular challenge. 1039 00:50:12,965 --> 00:50:15,385 Um, these are the people that we can chat to. 1040 00:50:16,005 --> 00:50:20,385 So I, for me, I mean, we, we aren't a, an organization 1041 00:50:20,385 --> 00:50:21,785 that necessarily gives advice. 1042 00:50:21,845 --> 00:50:25,145 We are very much one who, who goes looking for it. 1043 00:50:25,645 --> 00:50:28,245 So, um, and, and that's how we do it. 1044 00:50:28,245 --> 00:50:31,365 We just constantly out there meeting people, um, 1045 00:50:31,475 --> 00:50:33,045 finding interesting spaces. 1046 00:50:33,685 --> 00:50:37,845 I think young disabled people have to have the opportunity 1047 00:50:37,905 --> 00:50:39,085 to have their voice heard. 1048 00:50:39,635 --> 00:50:43,245 They have to create the change. They have to take respo. 1049 00:50:43,245 --> 00:50:46,045 It's like saying it, we're generations away possibly, 1050 00:50:46,905 --> 00:50:49,005 but change is happening 1051 00:50:49,305 --> 00:50:52,685 and it's, you know, it's our responsibility to make sure 1052 00:50:52,685 --> 00:50:53,885 that this generation 1053 00:50:53,885 --> 00:50:57,645 or the next generation have the opportunity to be heard so 1054 00:50:57,645 --> 00:50:58,885 that they can change the world. 1055 00:50:59,425 --> 00:51:02,165 Jossie. John, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. 1056 00:51:03,375 --> 00:51:06,085 There is certainly plenty that could 1057 00:51:06,225 --> 00:51:08,085 and should be done when it comes 1058 00:51:08,085 --> 00:51:10,445 to implementing inclusive practice. 1059 00:51:11,225 --> 00:51:14,645 As we conclude our discussion today, it's evident 1060 00:51:14,835 --> 00:51:18,205 that inclusive practice shouldn't merely be 1061 00:51:18,205 --> 00:51:19,285 an optional extra. 1062 00:51:19,825 --> 00:51:23,365 It needs to form an integral cornerstone of 1063 00:51:23,365 --> 00:51:24,965 what organizations provide. 1064 00:51:25,585 --> 00:51:30,125 If you're an organization tuning in, we implore you to pause 1065 00:51:30,305 --> 00:51:32,085 and reflect on this episode. 1066 00:51:33,405 --> 00:51:35,605 Consider how your work is delivered 1067 00:51:35,665 --> 00:51:37,965 and whether it authentically reaches everyone. 1068 00:51:38,705 --> 00:51:41,085 If you have experience, insights, 1069 00:51:41,345 --> 00:51:44,525 or opinions on what you've learned during this episode, 1070 00:51:45,275 --> 00:51:50,045 then please follow John Lyons charity on Instagram, X 1071 00:51:50,345 --> 00:51:52,765 and LinkedIn, and let us know what you think. 1072 00:51:54,525 --> 00:51:57,885 Remember together our collective efforts 1073 00:51:58,505 --> 00:52:00,245 can make a profound difference. 1074 00:52:02,265 --> 00:52:03,885 Hi, my name's Anna Ho Knott, 1075 00:52:03,885 --> 00:52:06,405 and I'm the Senior Grants Manager at John Lyons Charity. 1076 00:52:07,105 --> 00:52:09,565 I'm a white female and my pronouns are she her. 1077 00:52:10,185 --> 00:52:12,565 I'm wearing a bright print top and black trousers, 1078 00:52:12,785 --> 00:52:14,445 and I have blonde shoulder length hair. 1079 00:52:15,525 --> 00:52:17,365 I would like to thank all of our guests today 1080 00:52:17,385 --> 00:52:20,245 for their insightful contributions on this episode 1081 00:52:20,245 --> 00:52:22,245 that focuses on inclusive practice. 1082 00:52:22,845 --> 00:52:26,045 I would also like to thank Leoni Jackson from Broad Ford's 1083 00:52:26,045 --> 00:52:28,845 Primary School and Harrow for her perspective on working 1084 00:52:28,845 --> 00:52:32,005 with primary Shakespeare company at John Lyons charity. 1085 00:52:32,185 --> 00:52:35,205 We are committed to challenging organizations to ensuring 1086 00:52:35,235 --> 00:52:37,125 that their activities are inclusive 1087 00:52:37,505 --> 00:52:39,525 and open to all children and young people. 1088 00:52:40,345 --> 00:52:42,285 We have a responsibility as a funder 1089 00:52:42,545 --> 00:52:45,325 to challenge organizations on their inclusive practice, 1090 00:52:45,925 --> 00:52:47,965 regardless of their size or what they do. 1091 00:52:49,145 --> 00:52:53,045 As John noted earlier in 2023, John Lyons charity 1092 00:52:53,645 --> 00:52:56,365 launched a new strategy, which enables us to award funding 1093 00:52:56,505 --> 00:52:59,325 to organizations over a longer period of time. 1094 00:53:00,115 --> 00:53:02,085 They can now apply for up to five years 1095 00:53:02,085 --> 00:53:05,045 of funding at a time, which gives them crucial stability 1096 00:53:05,505 --> 00:53:07,445 and enables them to focus on delivering 1097 00:53:07,445 --> 00:53:08,525 their vital programs. 1098 00:53:08,665 --> 00:53:10,725 Rather than seeking funding continually, 1099 00:53:11,585 --> 00:53:13,405 we urge other funders to follow suit. 1100 00:53:14,725 --> 00:53:16,605 To find out more about our perspective series 1101 00:53:16,665 --> 00:53:18,285 and the funding opportunities available, 1102 00:53:18,665 --> 00:53:22,965 please see our website, www jlc London.