0 00:00:00.815 --> 00:00:04.085 Hello, and welcome to Stronger Voices Together, brought 1 00:00:04.085 --> 00:00:08.285 to you by John Lyons Charity, a podcast dedicated 2 00:00:08.465 --> 00:00:11.965 to exploring the diverse, vibrant world 3 00:00:12.105 --> 00:00:13.885 of disability and inclusion. 4 00:00:14.825 --> 00:00:18.485 The charity's funding strives to support all children 5 00:00:18.665 --> 00:00:22.805 and young people through education, including those 6 00:00:22.955 --> 00:00:26.965 with learning and access needs, championing their right 7 00:00:27.105 --> 00:00:30.365 to access the same opportunities as anyone else. 8 00:00:31.305 --> 00:00:35.845 I'm your host, Lucy Edwards, blind broadcaster, 9 00:00:36.515 --> 00:00:39.565 content creator and disability activist, 10 00:00:40.145 --> 00:00:42.605 and I'm delighted to be on this journey with you. 11 00:00:43.105 --> 00:00:44.965 For those of you listening to this podcast 12 00:00:45.225 --> 00:00:48.925 and not watching, I'm joined by my gorgeous guide dog, 13 00:00:48.925 --> 00:00:51.885 Miss Molly, at my feet, my audio description is 14 00:00:51.885 --> 00:00:53.685 that I've got a Forest Green dress on. 15 00:00:54.195 --> 00:00:57.685 It's velour in feel and touch, 16 00:00:58.425 --> 00:01:02.765 and I'm wearing a nude lipstick and coral eyeshadow. 17 00:01:15.495 --> 00:01:18.555 In this episode, we're exploring the value of arts 18 00:01:18.575 --> 00:01:21.995 and culture in both mainstream schools, special schools, 19 00:01:22.175 --> 00:01:23.555 and out-of-school settings. 20 00:01:23.955 --> 00:01:28.075 Particularly for visually impaired deaf neurodiverse 21 00:01:28.535 --> 00:01:30.475 and disabled children and young people. 22 00:01:31.495 --> 00:01:35.555 For too long arts education has been undervalued in 23 00:01:35.555 --> 00:01:37.635 comparison to other academic subjects. 24 00:01:38.335 --> 00:01:41.635 We are here to challenge this hierarchy, highlighting 25 00:01:41.775 --> 00:01:44.755 how the arts fosters creativity, confidence, 26 00:01:45.095 --> 00:01:47.715 and communication skills that are crucial 27 00:01:48.135 --> 00:01:50.315 for the holistic development for young minds 28 00:01:50.815 --> 00:01:53.315 to shed more light on the importance 29 00:01:53.315 --> 00:01:55.075 of cultural capital for young people. 30 00:01:55.775 --> 00:01:59.515 I'm delighted to welcome Ali King, chief Executive 31 00:01:59.615 --> 00:02:01.555 of Turtle Key Arts. Hello. 32 00:02:02.165 --> 00:02:05.275 Hello, Lucy. Thank you. And welcome. Very pleased to be 33 00:02:05.275 --> 00:02:06.275 Here. Oh, thank you so 34 00:02:06.275 --> 00:02:07.035 much. I always 35 00:02:07.035 --> 00:02:08.155 love to start these podcasts. 36 00:02:08.415 --> 00:02:12.275 By asking all of my guests for an audio description. 37 00:02:12.335 --> 00:02:15.755 Mm-Hmm. Pronouns and also a bit more about what you do. 38 00:02:16.025 --> 00:02:19.115 Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, I'm, I'm Ali King. 39 00:02:19.335 --> 00:02:23.475 I'm a, uh, white woman in my mid fifties. 40 00:02:24.195 --> 00:02:27.475 Um, I have, uh, long brown, straight hair. 41 00:02:27.935 --> 00:02:30.315 Um, I wear brown tortoise shell glasses 42 00:02:31.095 --> 00:02:32.715 and, uh, have quite a round face. 43 00:02:32.815 --> 00:02:36.115 And today I'm wearing a very vivid orange top Ooh. 44 00:02:36.295 --> 00:02:38.475 And with a dark brown necklace against it 45 00:02:39.015 --> 00:02:41.595 and, uh, blue jeans and, uh, yeah. 46 00:02:41.595 --> 00:02:44.115 My pronouns are she, her and a Turtle. 47 00:02:44.215 --> 00:02:45.835 Key Arts is a registered charity. 48 00:02:46.015 --> 00:02:48.715 We are based at the Lyric Theater in Hammersmith. 49 00:02:48.715 --> 00:02:50.595 We're one of their partner organizations. 50 00:02:51.055 --> 00:02:55.195 And Turtle Key Arts was really set up to, uh, provide access 51 00:02:55.255 --> 00:02:58.755 and opportunities and inclusion for, uh, emerging artists 52 00:02:58.855 --> 00:03:00.805 and young people to engage with the arts, 53 00:03:00.805 --> 00:03:03.485 with a particular emphasis on working with young people 54 00:03:03.485 --> 00:03:05.885 with disabilities and providing opportunities when they 55 00:03:05.885 --> 00:03:06.965 might be most excluded. 56 00:03:07.785 --> 00:03:11.005 And, um, some of our projects that we run are supported 57 00:03:11.005 --> 00:03:12.125 by the John Lyon’s Charity. 58 00:03:12.745 --> 00:03:15.205 And, um, and that's our key clubs that we do. 59 00:03:15.625 --> 00:03:18.165 Oh, I love it. And I feel like you're, so, 60 00:03:18.545 --> 00:03:21.125 you are best placed to talk about this subject. 61 00:03:21.425 --> 00:03:25.205 And I think let's start then with your opinion. 62 00:03:26.225 --> 00:03:28.565 Why are the arts so crucial? 63 00:03:29.185 --> 00:03:30.925 Mm. Yeah. I mean, I find 64 00:03:30.925 --> 00:03:32.525 that a really easy question to answer. 65 00:03:32.675 --> 00:03:35.605 Yeah. Um, I think the arts are incredibly crucial. 66 00:03:35.835 --> 00:03:37.605 They do so much for young people, 67 00:03:37.665 --> 00:03:39.925 and especially young people with disabilities. 68 00:03:40.305 --> 00:03:43.165 Um, I mean, the arts promote as we know, wellbeing. 69 00:03:43.625 --> 00:03:45.805 Um, they promote when you're working together as a group, 70 00:03:46.005 --> 00:03:47.885 a sense of team, a sense. 71 00:03:47.885 --> 00:03:51.445 They help young people, um, feel confident, get young people 72 00:03:51.445 --> 00:03:54.845 to sort of share, um, and participate and work together. 73 00:03:55.465 --> 00:03:57.365 And I think also having fun 74 00:03:57.385 --> 00:03:58.805 and you can't overlook that, you know, 75 00:03:58.805 --> 00:04:00.365 you can't sort of dismiss that. 76 00:04:00.395 --> 00:04:02.125 It's really important to be happy. Mm. 77 00:04:02.265 --> 00:04:03.645 And for a young person when you're trying 78 00:04:03.645 --> 00:04:05.005 to navigate the world that we live in, 79 00:04:05.005 --> 00:04:06.485 and it's getting increasingly harder. 80 00:04:06.865 --> 00:04:08.405 And certainly the pressures of social media. 81 00:04:08.605 --> 00:04:11.765 I think, again, being able to go out and doing arts activity 82 00:04:11.825 --> 00:04:13.205 and take part in something. 83 00:04:13.385 --> 00:04:15.325 You're doing something live, you're joining in, 84 00:04:15.545 --> 00:04:18.085 and that promotes feelings of happiness and wellbeing 85 00:04:18.145 --> 00:04:21.005 and joy, which is also not to be overlooked. 86 00:04:21.635 --> 00:04:24.525 What are the specific benefits of engaging in arts 87 00:04:24.585 --> 00:04:26.525 and cultural activities for young people 88 00:04:26.525 --> 00:04:27.845 with learning access needs? 89 00:04:28.795 --> 00:04:33.005 Yeah. Um, I think there are many, uh, specific benefits. 90 00:04:33.325 --> 00:04:37.525 I, I think, um, for young people with, um, uh, 91 00:04:37.525 --> 00:04:38.765 special educational needs, 92 00:04:38.885 --> 00:04:40.405 I think it can be a different way of learning. 93 00:04:41.245 --> 00:04:44.365 I think sometimes the conventional courses and curriculum 94 00:04:44.745 --> 00:04:47.325 and classes don't necessarily fit someone, um, 95 00:04:47.325 --> 00:04:51.045 that has special educational needs or additional needs. 96 00:04:51.345 --> 00:04:53.925 So I think, um, the arts can give that sort 97 00:04:53.925 --> 00:04:55.125 of more creativity 98 00:04:55.585 --> 00:04:57.605 so it can unlock learning in a different way. 99 00:04:57.665 --> 00:05:00.325 So it can be through visual, or it can be through movement, 100 00:05:00.665 --> 00:05:03.805 or it can be through participating through a shared project. 101 00:05:04.345 --> 00:05:07.005 Um, it can be through listening, it can be 102 00:05:07.005 --> 00:05:08.285 through many different ways. 103 00:05:08.305 --> 00:05:10.605 And I think, you know, for someone who's, uh, you know, 104 00:05:10.665 --> 00:05:14.845 not neurotypical, um, actually having the opportunity to, to 105 00:05:15.485 --> 00:05:18.165 approach learning in a different way is really important 106 00:05:18.165 --> 00:05:20.885 because, you know, it allow also then allows them 107 00:05:21.025 --> 00:05:23.445 to realize, you know, just how clever they are. 108 00:05:23.445 --> 00:05:24.965 Mm-Hmm. And just what potential they have 109 00:05:24.965 --> 00:05:27.685 because, you know, one size doesn't fit all. 110 00:05:28.025 --> 00:05:30.485 And I think that what the creative artist does is find 111 00:05:30.485 --> 00:05:32.525 different ways of engaging with people. 112 00:05:33.025 --> 00:05:34.565 And I think that's is crucial. 113 00:05:34.745 --> 00:05:38.005 And I think it's really, really crucial in, um, you know, 114 00:05:38.065 --> 00:05:39.245 an SEN environment. 115 00:05:39.705 --> 00:05:41.645 And I think that's a real difference. 116 00:05:41.705 --> 00:05:44.685 And I think that's where you can often see the biggest 117 00:05:45.065 --> 00:05:47.405 impact and gain of the arts and culture. 118 00:05:47.895 --> 00:05:52.885 Would you say then that's, would you say that the reason 119 00:05:52.885 --> 00:05:54.565 that you get up and do what you do is 120 00:05:54.565 --> 00:05:56.885 because you want young kids to have the opportunity? 121 00:05:57.595 --> 00:05:59.045 Yeah, very much so. I think 122 00:05:59.045 --> 00:06:01.445 that art can make a difference to people's lives. 123 00:06:01.725 --> 00:06:02.805 I strongly believe that. 124 00:06:03.245 --> 00:06:05.285 I also think that art can have an impact 125 00:06:05.385 --> 00:06:08.285 and help make the world a better place to be in. 126 00:06:08.905 --> 00:06:10.605 And, um, you know, I really hope 127 00:06:10.605 --> 00:06:14.005 that in a way I think art allows people opportunities. 128 00:06:14.545 --> 00:06:16.045 So that's why we do it. 129 00:06:16.105 --> 00:06:18.645 And I think, you know, engaging people when they're young 130 00:06:18.645 --> 00:06:21.085 and providing that opportunity is so important. 131 00:06:21.185 --> 00:06:24.245 And we've always been real champions, um, for us as well, 132 00:06:24.245 --> 00:06:26.125 is finding those people that don't necessarily get 133 00:06:26.125 --> 00:06:28.725 that access and maybe will be excluded 134 00:06:28.825 --> 00:06:29.885 for a variety of reasons. 135 00:06:30.305 --> 00:06:32.925 And we're always very keen to kind of work with them 136 00:06:33.345 --> 00:06:34.925 and provide opportunities for them. 137 00:06:35.555 --> 00:06:37.765 Yeah. And you said culture changes lives. 138 00:06:37.985 --> 00:06:40.445 So in terms of cultural capital then, 139 00:06:40.835 --> 00:06:41.965 what does that mean to you? 140 00:06:42.435 --> 00:06:45.405 Yeah, so for me, yeah, cultural capital is about, 141 00:06:45.545 --> 00:06:47.285 you know, culture being at front 142 00:06:47.385 --> 00:06:49.965 and centre of, of what happens in young people's lives. 143 00:06:50.385 --> 00:06:53.805 And it should have as much importance in, in schools 144 00:06:54.025 --> 00:06:58.485 and education as, um, you know, more mainstream subjects. 145 00:06:58.715 --> 00:07:01.565 Yeah. I mean, you talk about being overlooked 146 00:07:01.585 --> 00:07:04.925 as a young person, and I think it's definitely a, 147 00:07:05.125 --> 00:07:07.005 a massive topic we should talk about, I think. 148 00:07:07.545 --> 00:07:10.125 Do you feel like the arts 149 00:07:10.665 --> 00:07:13.725 are completely overlooked over other subjects? 150 00:07:14.685 --> 00:07:17.405 Increasingly, sadly, that's what seems to be happening 151 00:07:17.405 --> 00:07:20.045 with the, uh, current kind of political landscape. 152 00:07:20.145 --> 00:07:21.685 And I think that's absolutely tragic. 153 00:07:22.245 --> 00:07:24.165 I mean, we go and work with a lots of schools 154 00:07:24.305 --> 00:07:25.885 and they're really under resourced. 155 00:07:25.885 --> 00:07:27.045 They're overstretched 156 00:07:27.425 --> 00:07:28.925 and they're having to sort of, 157 00:07:28.925 --> 00:07:30.925 where the arts is coming off the curriculums, 158 00:07:30.925 --> 00:07:33.445 they're actually being forced to kind of close down, 159 00:07:33.635 --> 00:07:35.805 like their arts programs or the teachers are leaving. 160 00:07:36.105 --> 00:07:38.165 So you are seeing that provision being less and less 161 00:07:38.165 --> 00:07:39.365 because it's not a priority. 162 00:07:39.585 --> 00:07:42.165 So it's not coming from the top and being sort of put down. 163 00:07:42.185 --> 00:07:44.445 And I think that's such a shame, and you're seeing less 164 00:07:44.445 --> 00:07:48.005 and less people taking, you know, GCSE dance and drama 165 00:07:48.225 --> 00:07:49.685 or even thinking about it at A-level. 166 00:07:49.705 --> 00:07:51.805 But even if you don't go that far, which then 167 00:07:51.805 --> 00:07:53.045 of course will have a knock on effect 168 00:07:53.045 --> 00:07:55.085 to who's actually studying it to then who comes 169 00:07:55.085 --> 00:07:56.245 and works in the industry. 170 00:07:56.585 --> 00:07:58.645 And again, it's like, even if you don't want to go on 171 00:07:58.645 --> 00:08:01.805 and study it, um, at a higher level, what it does for you 172 00:08:01.805 --> 00:08:04.405 as a young person, just that whole sort of, you know, even 173 00:08:04.405 --> 00:08:06.205 with terms of being able to interact 174 00:08:06.225 --> 00:08:08.885 and communicate with people or, or, or talk 175 00:08:08.905 --> 00:08:11.125 or just feel that confidence, it, it does so much, 176 00:08:11.265 --> 00:08:14.765 but it's definitely being overlooked and I think sidelined 177 00:08:14.765 --> 00:08:18.125 and marginalized in favour of more traditional subjects. 178 00:08:18.125 --> 00:08:20.845 And I think that's about kind of a box ticking exercise. 179 00:08:20.865 --> 00:08:23.005 And I think it's about having good stats. 180 00:08:23.005 --> 00:08:26.205 And what they're not doing is they're not getting what the, 181 00:08:26.205 --> 00:08:28.925 the benefit of the arts because you can't apply numbers 182 00:08:28.985 --> 00:08:31.685 to it or you can't kind of quantify that benefit 183 00:08:31.685 --> 00:08:33.805 because it's, it, it, it's out there, it's tangible. 184 00:08:34.025 --> 00:08:35.645 You see it and you see that improvement 185 00:08:35.645 --> 00:08:38.005 with the young people if you engage and work with them. 186 00:08:38.225 --> 00:08:40.445 But if you're coming in to fill out a, a, a sheet 187 00:08:40.465 --> 00:08:42.165 or an appraisal, you're not necessarily 188 00:08:42.165 --> 00:08:43.285 gonna get that information. 189 00:08:43.985 --> 00:08:45.085 Do you think then arts 190 00:08:45.105 --> 00:08:47.565 and cultural organizations are kind of trying to fill 191 00:08:47.565 --> 00:08:50.405 that gap outside of the school environment? 192 00:08:50.405 --> 00:08:51.605 Yeah, very much so. 193 00:08:51.805 --> 00:08:54.165 I think it's being, um, pushed onto the arts 194 00:08:54.225 --> 00:08:57.765 and, uh, organizations and, um, and, and you know, 195 00:08:57.785 --> 00:09:00.645 and we are happy to sort of do that, but it really is, 196 00:09:00.665 --> 00:09:02.725 and I think, and the schools, you know, obviously are, 197 00:09:02.725 --> 00:09:04.245 are desperate because they see the benefit. 198 00:09:05.025 --> 00:09:07.485 Um, and yeah, I think it's definitely being pushed onto arts 199 00:09:07.485 --> 00:09:08.765 organizations to provide, 200 00:09:09.065 --> 00:09:11.365 but then what's not happening is that funding 201 00:09:11.465 --> 00:09:13.925 and resources from local councils 202 00:09:13.925 --> 00:09:14.965 and government isn't there. 203 00:09:15.225 --> 00:09:17.925 So then you are relying on kind of other organizations, 204 00:09:17.985 --> 00:09:19.925 trusts and foundations to see that benefit 205 00:09:20.345 --> 00:09:21.565 and to step in and fund. 206 00:09:21.905 --> 00:09:23.325 So that's where it's also breaking 207 00:09:23.325 --> 00:09:24.565 down in that area as well. 208 00:09:24.955 --> 00:09:26.485 Yeah, I am definitely seeing that. 209 00:09:26.665 --> 00:09:29.765 And I think definitely even from when I was at school 210 00:09:30.465 --> 00:09:32.005 10 years back, you know, 211 00:09:32.265 --> 00:09:34.285 I'm seeing the funding drop even further, 212 00:09:34.635 --> 00:09:38.165 even Braille lessons I used to be able to have in term time. 213 00:09:38.865 --> 00:09:41.365 And now, you know, there's, there's not as much funding. 214 00:09:41.545 --> 00:09:43.885 So I can definitely relate to that. 215 00:09:44.505 --> 00:09:46.525 In terms of your organization then, 216 00:09:46.525 --> 00:09:49.285 because you, you do deal with a lot of your young people, 217 00:09:50.625 --> 00:09:54.725 um, with different access needs, where do you think that 218 00:09:55.485 --> 00:09:58.845 cultural organizations can, can help younger people? 219 00:09:59.395 --> 00:10:01.325 Yeah. Um, that's a really good question. 220 00:10:01.725 --> 00:10:03.725 I, uh, I think first of all, 221 00:10:03.795 --> 00:10:05.645 it's identifying what they want. 222 00:10:06.285 --> 00:10:07.445 I think that's really key. 223 00:10:07.625 --> 00:10:10.885 So I think it's actually listening to the young people 224 00:10:11.145 --> 00:10:12.325 and the schools at, 225 00:10:12.345 --> 00:10:14.445 or the community centres, whoever you are engaging with 226 00:10:14.465 --> 00:10:16.365 to sort of access these young people. 227 00:10:16.365 --> 00:10:18.485 Finding out, you know, kind of where the lack 228 00:10:18.485 --> 00:10:19.765 of provision is and what they need. 229 00:10:20.185 --> 00:10:22.045 We do go into schools, but we also try 230 00:10:22.045 --> 00:10:24.805 and bring the young people out to the organizations 231 00:10:24.805 --> 00:10:26.645 where we work because that's also really important. 232 00:10:26.805 --> 00:10:29.525 'cause that also gives them a sense of independence 233 00:10:29.585 --> 00:10:31.605 and kind of a bit of sort of, you know, 234 00:10:31.635 --> 00:10:33.285 ownership over it and liberation. 235 00:10:33.315 --> 00:10:36.685 It's not happening in their classroom, in their term time. 236 00:10:36.795 --> 00:10:38.965 Yeah. Which can also give them a little bit of, 237 00:10:38.965 --> 00:10:40.485 um, freedom I think. 238 00:10:40.785 --> 00:10:43.485 So maybe if they've got a preconceived judgment about 239 00:10:43.485 --> 00:10:46.685 themselves or you know, they might be considered to be, 240 00:10:46.705 --> 00:10:48.325 you know, the naughty one, again, it's starting 241 00:10:48.325 --> 00:10:50.445 with a clean sheet, so we often try 242 00:10:50.445 --> 00:10:52.725 and get the young people out and working with us. 243 00:10:52.905 --> 00:10:56.085 So I think it's about also lobbying to, you know, attend 244 00:10:56.545 --> 00:10:59.405 and, and engage with what's happening culturally in your 245 00:10:59.405 --> 00:11:01.445 community and would make a big difference. 246 00:11:01.505 --> 00:11:04.445 And for other funders as well, there aren't many funders 247 00:11:04.795 --> 00:11:08.565 that fund arts and increasingly they're having pressures. 248 00:11:09.105 --> 00:11:12.605 And, um, so I think it's also providing more opportunities 249 00:11:12.905 --> 00:11:15.765 for those arts organizations to access those and, 250 00:11:15.825 --> 00:11:18.045 and make those, um, projects happen. 251 00:11:18.305 --> 00:11:21.805 So yes, there is a lot to be done, um, to, to make the case 252 00:11:21.905 --> 00:11:23.045 for cultural capital. 253 00:11:23.145 --> 00:11:25.485 And there are really good organizations 254 00:11:25.585 --> 00:11:26.845 and people fighting for that. 255 00:11:27.185 --> 00:11:29.085 And I just hope that there's many more ways 256 00:11:29.085 --> 00:11:31.205 that we can all join that fight. 257 00:11:31.825 --> 00:11:34.245 Mm-Hmm, definitely. Yeah. 258 00:11:34.305 --> 00:11:37.605 And what have you found to be the specific challenges trying 259 00:11:37.605 --> 00:11:40.405 to engage with special schools? Yeah. 260 00:11:40.425 --> 00:11:41.725 In arts projects, yeah. 261 00:11:41.725 --> 00:11:44.605 We're finding them really under-resourced. Right. 262 00:11:44.705 --> 00:11:46.605 You know, I mean, they're being squeezed. 263 00:11:46.605 --> 00:11:48.205 They're having their budgets cut. 264 00:11:48.825 --> 00:11:51.045 Um, you know, they're, they're struggling 265 00:11:51.105 --> 00:11:52.325 to obviously provide 266 00:11:52.425 --> 00:11:55.525 and cater for the young people that are needing them. 267 00:11:56.145 --> 00:11:57.845 And so, and where they're having 268 00:11:57.845 --> 00:12:00.365 to follow a certain curriculum, we are seeing arts 269 00:12:00.385 --> 00:12:01.445 and culture disappearing. 270 00:12:01.485 --> 00:12:03.405 I mean, there's one special school we go and work with, 271 00:12:03.545 --> 00:12:05.365 and they've literally got an empty art room. 272 00:12:05.465 --> 00:12:07.245 And we were the, we went in and used it 273 00:12:07.305 --> 00:12:09.365 and we did a project, um, 274 00:12:09.505 --> 00:12:13.325 an incredible project actually again, um, supported, 275 00:12:13.425 --> 00:12:14.565 um, by John Lyon. 276 00:12:14.665 --> 00:12:16.445 But in some of the SEN schools we went to, 277 00:12:17.025 --> 00:12:20.005 we were the dance provision, we were the arts provision, 278 00:12:20.265 --> 00:12:21.565 we were providing the theatre 279 00:12:21.565 --> 00:12:23.245 because they just didn't have the staff 280 00:12:23.745 --> 00:12:25.445 or the time in the timetable 281 00:12:25.445 --> 00:12:28.285 or the resources to run that department anymore. 282 00:12:28.625 --> 00:12:31.605 And so as they'd been forced to cut, they'd had to cut that. 283 00:12:31.865 --> 00:12:33.405 And as they'd come off the curriculum, 284 00:12:33.665 --> 00:12:35.125 the young people were not getting it 285 00:12:35.125 --> 00:12:36.685 because the school couldn't provide it 286 00:12:36.685 --> 00:12:38.125 because it wasn't a priority 287 00:12:38.125 --> 00:12:39.605 that was coming from the top down. 288 00:12:39.865 --> 00:12:41.085 Wow. So it's not the school's fault 289 00:12:41.145 --> 00:12:43.005 and it's not their desire not to provide it. 290 00:12:43.185 --> 00:12:45.485 And that's the reality of what we were finding. Wow. 291 00:12:45.665 --> 00:12:48.405 So you find that so many art rooms are just empty. 292 00:12:48.595 --> 00:12:50.925 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And there have been somewhere literally 293 00:12:50.925 --> 00:12:53.645 they don't have the teacher anymore to actually do, 294 00:12:53.865 --> 00:12:55.005 do run the art classes. 295 00:12:55.385 --> 00:12:57.205 Is that most special schools you go to? 296 00:12:57.425 --> 00:13:00.085 Um, not most. It is just some, it might be, it depends 297 00:13:00.085 --> 00:13:01.245 what we're sort of going in with, 298 00:13:01.265 --> 00:13:03.085 but sometimes it can be, you know, there, 299 00:13:03.085 --> 00:13:05.405 there will be a teacher that will be part of their remit 300 00:13:05.405 --> 00:13:07.165 to do dance, but obviously there might 301 00:13:07.165 --> 00:13:08.365 only get to it once a term. 302 00:13:08.865 --> 00:13:11.045 So, or you know, whereas we are able to go in 303 00:13:11.045 --> 00:13:12.365 and do that over a number of weeks. 304 00:13:12.505 --> 00:13:14.685 And I think especially, you know, yes, 305 00:13:14.685 --> 00:13:16.285 you've got issues in mainstream schools, 306 00:13:16.305 --> 00:13:18.765 but I think especially when you are engaging 307 00:13:18.765 --> 00:13:21.925 with young people with special educational needs, there is 308 00:13:21.985 --> 00:13:23.685 so much incredible potential. 309 00:13:23.755 --> 00:13:26.085 Yeah. And joy in those young people. 310 00:13:26.265 --> 00:13:28.685 And it, and often it's just also for the organizations 311 00:13:29.065 --> 00:13:31.565 to have confidence and it's just about planning 312 00:13:31.585 --> 00:13:32.805 and it's just about adapting. 313 00:13:32.865 --> 00:13:34.565 And, and, and anything is possible. 314 00:13:35.245 --> 00:13:37.205 Anything is possible. Yeah. Anything is possible. Yeah. 315 00:13:37.305 --> 00:13:38.725 It is just about adaptation. 316 00:13:38.985 --> 00:13:40.325 It is about thinking outside the box. 317 00:13:41.065 --> 00:13:44.125 Um, and young people with disabilities, some 318 00:13:44.125 --> 00:13:45.765 of the most resilient kids, you’ll ever meet. 319 00:13:46.035 --> 00:13:47.125 They really, really are. 320 00:13:47.145 --> 00:13:49.205 And what I love as well is that they're all, you know, 321 00:13:49.205 --> 00:13:51.725 they will be so honest and, and, and, 322 00:13:51.785 --> 00:13:54.485 and we, you know, we, we create that very safe space 323 00:13:54.585 --> 00:13:56.205 and we want people to tell us, 324 00:13:56.205 --> 00:13:57.885 because you can never presume to know 325 00:13:58.195 --> 00:13:59.685 what someone's thinking or feeling. 326 00:14:00.025 --> 00:14:02.485 And if you don't share that disability, 327 00:14:02.485 --> 00:14:04.285 you're not necessarily gonna know, 328 00:14:04.345 --> 00:14:06.365 but you can certainly, um, support. 329 00:14:06.795 --> 00:14:09.645 Yeah, definitely. What's the difference when you work 330 00:14:09.795 --> 00:14:12.565 with mainstream schools versus special schools? 331 00:14:12.745 --> 00:14:14.205 Is there a different provision for you? 332 00:14:14.745 --> 00:14:17.005 Yes. I think when we go into an SEN school 333 00:14:17.005 --> 00:14:19.725 and you're working with a, you know, a a whole group, 334 00:14:20.315 --> 00:14:22.925 obviously the school is more geared around their needs. 335 00:14:22.925 --> 00:14:24.125 There's more understanding 336 00:14:24.665 --> 00:14:27.085 and, um, you know, all of our workshop leaders are, are, 337 00:14:27.105 --> 00:14:29.045 are trained and, and supported. 338 00:14:29.505 --> 00:14:31.525 Um, and it gives us really the ability 339 00:14:31.665 --> 00:14:34.085 to create something very bespoke for those young people 340 00:14:34.585 --> 00:14:36.725 and allows, I think, over the course of those sort 341 00:14:36.725 --> 00:14:40.045 of sessions to really, you know, work with them very closely 342 00:14:40.265 --> 00:14:43.765 and really unlock their potential rather than trying to, 343 00:14:43.985 --> 00:14:45.045 you know, support them 344 00:14:45.045 --> 00:14:47.325 and accommodate them in a mainstream environment, 345 00:14:47.495 --> 00:14:49.885 which we can do and we can do very well. 346 00:14:50.185 --> 00:14:52.645 But I sometimes think the young person misses out. 347 00:14:53.025 --> 00:14:55.605 And I think actually when you're in the SEN environment, a, 348 00:14:55.605 --> 00:14:58.045 the teachers have more knowledge and support 349 00:14:58.045 --> 00:15:00.365 and understanding and, uh, and, 350 00:15:00.385 --> 00:15:01.885 and the school is geared up for that. 351 00:15:01.905 --> 00:15:03.125 So then as you are going in 352 00:15:03.125 --> 00:15:05.045 as an arts organization providing that provision, 353 00:15:05.265 --> 00:15:07.445 you are already starting from a, at the same place 354 00:15:07.465 --> 00:15:08.645 as a shared language 355 00:15:09.025 --> 00:15:11.485 and you're working together to deliver that. 356 00:15:11.485 --> 00:15:13.365 Whereas I think when you go into a mainstream school, 357 00:15:13.365 --> 00:15:15.365 sometimes it can be much harder for the teacher 358 00:15:15.565 --> 00:15:17.045 'cause they're facing a much larger class 359 00:15:17.385 --> 00:15:18.845 and they've got so many challenges 360 00:15:18.865 --> 00:15:21.805 and you are almost a welcome relief rather than actually 361 00:15:21.805 --> 00:15:22.885 feeling like a partnership. 362 00:15:22.945 --> 00:15:25.565 So I think, you know, you create probably more meaningful 363 00:15:25.565 --> 00:15:28.285 and deeper relationships when you work with the SEN schools. 364 00:15:28.795 --> 00:15:30.805 It's just making it equal and right for everyone. 365 00:15:31.125 --> 00:15:33.285 I think that's a testament to your organization though. 366 00:15:33.445 --> 00:15:35.285 'cause I think people can be scared 367 00:15:35.425 --> 00:15:36.845 and kind of beat around the bush 368 00:15:36.915 --> 00:15:38.205 when it comes to disability. 369 00:15:38.525 --> 00:15:41.165 I know that, you know, people worry about kind 370 00:15:41.165 --> 00:15:43.925 of access needs for myself when I go into different rooms. 371 00:15:44.065 --> 00:15:47.085 Yes. And it's just, it, you know, as the young person 372 00:15:47.195 --> 00:15:49.285 that kind of happens on a disability, 373 00:15:49.345 --> 00:15:50.365 it like happened to me. 374 00:15:50.665 --> 00:15:54.845 You are often, you know, told by older adults 375 00:15:54.845 --> 00:15:56.445 and things like, oh, what do you need? 376 00:15:56.505 --> 00:15:58.885 And sometimes it's like, well, just to be a kid, you know? 377 00:15:58.885 --> 00:16:01.765 Yeah. Yeah. I am blind or I do have a disability, 378 00:16:02.025 --> 00:16:04.645 but let's just let my hair down. Yeah. 379 00:16:04.825 --> 00:16:07.085 Now you're absolutely right. Yeah. And I think that's it. 380 00:16:07.085 --> 00:16:09.325 And I think for a lot of people it's nothing more than a 381 00:16:09.325 --> 00:16:11.645 little bit of fear and, and a worry about doing 382 00:16:11.665 --> 00:16:12.725 and saying the wrong thing. 383 00:16:12.865 --> 00:16:14.405 And, um, we're never afraid 384 00:16:14.405 --> 00:16:15.925 to get stuck in at Turtle Key Arts. 385 00:16:16.065 --> 00:16:17.525 And I think, um, you know, 386 00:16:17.525 --> 00:16:19.845 and as we said earlier, the young people incredibly robust 387 00:16:19.845 --> 00:16:22.765 and very good at telling you, but I think also allows them 388 00:16:22.825 --> 00:16:23.845 the space to do that. 389 00:16:23.865 --> 00:16:26.325 And it's affording equal respect, you know, 390 00:16:26.325 --> 00:16:28.485 and I think that's so important and it, and it, 391 00:16:28.545 --> 00:16:29.565 and, uh, yeah, for us, 392 00:16:29.565 --> 00:16:32.125 that just seems the right way to be. Mm-Hmm. 393 00:16:32.285 --> 00:16:36.405 I agree. And I think what then needs to be done 394 00:16:36.505 --> 00:16:39.045 to close the cultural capital gap for those 395 00:16:39.045 --> 00:16:41.245 with learning and access needs? Yeah, 396 00:16:41.445 --> 00:16:43.125 I think it's, I mean unfortunately, 397 00:16:43.125 --> 00:16:45.445 obviously you are always looking at a smaller percentage, 398 00:16:45.465 --> 00:16:46.965 so those sort of smaller percentage 399 00:16:46.965 --> 00:16:48.965 of young people are gonna get ignored 400 00:16:49.145 --> 00:16:50.245 and kind of get, you know, 401 00:16:50.745 --> 00:16:52.965 washed away in the kind of bigger stats. 402 00:16:52.965 --> 00:16:56.645 And I think it's actually, again, recognizing the importance 403 00:16:56.785 --> 00:17:00.285 of, of, of those schools and what they need. 404 00:17:00.585 --> 00:17:03.365 And I think, I dunno how we kind of bang that drum, 405 00:17:03.785 --> 00:17:06.725 but it's like not forgetting that percentage of young 406 00:17:07.405 --> 00:17:09.565 disabled people that need that additional support 407 00:17:09.625 --> 00:17:11.565 and need to access learning in a different way. 408 00:17:11.565 --> 00:17:13.805 Mm-Hmm. And I suppose more joined up thinking, 409 00:17:13.965 --> 00:17:16.645 I suppose everyone tends to work very kind 410 00:17:16.645 --> 00:17:20.045 of in their own little sort of microenvironment. 411 00:17:20.545 --> 00:17:22.845 And I suppose it's having that more connectivity 412 00:17:22.955 --> 00:17:26.645 amongst organizations itself and also more partnerships, 413 00:17:26.645 --> 00:17:28.245 because that's a really key way. 414 00:17:28.265 --> 00:17:30.965 And we believe wholeheartedly in partnerships, you know, 415 00:17:30.965 --> 00:17:33.365 whether it's with other organizations, whether it's 416 00:17:33.365 --> 00:17:35.765 with schools, whether it's with funders, 417 00:17:35.825 --> 00:17:38.085 or, you know, a whole combination of that 418 00:17:38.085 --> 00:17:40.445 because, you know, if you work in partnership, 419 00:17:40.445 --> 00:17:42.005 that also gives you a stronger voice 420 00:17:42.145 --> 00:17:45.965 and it gives you more, um, kind of power and gravitas 421 00:17:45.965 --> 00:17:48.445 and it gives you momentum to sort of fight the case. 422 00:17:49.325 --> 00:17:51.405 Ali, thank you. No, thank you Lucy. Very much. 423 00:17:52.955 --> 00:17:55.765 Stay tuned for part two after this short testimonial. 424 00:17:57.745 --> 00:18:01.805 My name is JK, I am a multidisciplinary artist. 425 00:18:02.525 --> 00:18:05.965 I am a cartoonist digital designer, workshop facilitator 426 00:18:06.385 --> 00:18:07.605 and businessman. 427 00:18:08.505 --> 00:18:09.605 And I'm from West London. 428 00:18:10.365 --> 00:18:11.845 I grew up in a creative house 429 00:18:12.225 --> 00:18:14.725 and I started my artist career during the pandemic 430 00:18:15.105 --> 00:18:16.405 and I went on to draw Mr. 431 00:18:16.465 --> 00:18:20.085 Men characters. And then along the way I developed my own 432 00:18:20.085 --> 00:18:21.725 cartoon characters called the Jadoodles, 433 00:18:22.395 --> 00:18:25.765 they emphasize on showing facial expressions, which I love. 434 00:18:26.425 --> 00:18:29.165 So my residency began in 2022. 435 00:18:29.425 --> 00:18:30.725 The Cartoon Museum asked me 436 00:18:30.725 --> 00:18:32.805 to do free responses at the museum. 437 00:18:33.785 --> 00:18:35.805 And since the responses were so good, 438 00:18:36.225 --> 00:18:38.925 the museum have decided to buy all of my free responses 439 00:18:38.945 --> 00:18:40.205 and exhibited at the museum. 440 00:18:41.505 --> 00:18:43.445 So being a professional cartoonist is 441 00:18:43.445 --> 00:18:44.565 really good and unique. 442 00:18:45.115 --> 00:18:47.645 I've worked with some big galleries such 443 00:18:47.645 --> 00:18:49.485 as the Serpentine Youth Collective, 444 00:18:49.865 --> 00:18:51.445 the Westminster City Lions, 445 00:18:52.105 --> 00:18:54.285 and especially The Cartoon museum. 446 00:18:55.305 --> 00:18:57.925 And I also put on some wellbeing workshops 447 00:18:57.955 --> 00:18:59.205 such as wellbeing events. 448 00:19:00.065 --> 00:19:02.645 And I also want to take my artist journey to 449 00:19:02.785 --> 00:19:06.685 around the world, such as New York, Brighton, 450 00:19:06.945 --> 00:19:08.365 and other places around the world. 451 00:19:09.225 --> 00:19:10.365 The most important people 452 00:19:10.365 --> 00:19:13.925 who support me on the way was Paul Morrow at my old school, 453 00:19:14.425 --> 00:19:17.885 the Serpentine Youth Collective, the Westminster City Lions, 454 00:19:18.745 --> 00:19:20.725 and the best PA, which is my sister. 455 00:19:21.765 --> 00:19:24.965 Everyone can do art, even if you are born differently, 456 00:19:25.745 --> 00:19:26.845 you can do what you like. 457 00:19:27.385 --> 00:19:28.885 The reason why I love art is 458 00:19:28.885 --> 00:19:30.725 because there's no right or wrong answer. 459 00:19:31.745 --> 00:19:34.365 To find out more information about the JK Cartoon Studios, 460 00:19:34.705 --> 00:19:38.365 you can follow us at Instagram at JK_Cartoon_Studios. 461 00:19:38.835 --> 00:19:40.725 And, you can find us at 462 00:19:41.545 --> 00:19:44.565 www.JKCartoonStudios.com if you want to buy some 463 00:19:44.565 --> 00:19:45.805 prints and some socks. 464 00:19:46.305 --> 00:19:48.765 If you want to see of my animation in the future, 465 00:19:49.545 --> 00:19:52.405 it will be on Netflix, Disney Plus or Amazon Prime. 466 00:19:54.385 --> 00:19:57.685 So we have identified that there is a definite need 467 00:19:57.865 --> 00:20:01.445 for cultural capital, the knowledge about things that, 468 00:20:01.445 --> 00:20:03.405 that are outside of our daily lives, 469 00:20:03.815 --> 00:20:06.325 especially when it comes to supporting children 470 00:20:06.785 --> 00:20:09.885 and young people with access and learning needs. 471 00:20:10.605 --> 00:20:12.125 I suppose the question is now 472 00:20:12.395 --> 00:20:15.045 what can we do together to implement change? 473 00:20:15.905 --> 00:20:19.365 How can schools and arts organizations work together 474 00:20:19.545 --> 00:20:22.965 to ensure no young person is left behind 475 00:20:23.745 --> 00:20:25.525 and who really is accountable here? 476 00:20:27.505 --> 00:20:31.085 We are now joined by Paul Morrow, lead practitioner 477 00:20:31.585 --> 00:20:34.445 of the Creative Arts at Westminster Special Schools. 478 00:20:34.795 --> 00:20:37.685 Paul, thank you for joining me. Delighted to be here. 479 00:20:39.345 --> 00:20:42.245 So Paul, I always like to start off if you're comfy 480 00:20:42.515 --> 00:20:45.685 with a quick audio description of yourself, your pronouns, 481 00:20:45.985 --> 00:20:48.765 and a bit more about what you do. Okay. 482 00:20:49.265 --> 00:20:54.005 Um, uh, my pronouns are he and him. Um, I'm ginger haired. 483 00:20:54.725 --> 00:20:56.205 I have a ginger beard. Um, 484 00:20:56.435 --> 00:20:57.435 Love it. 485 00:20:58.555 --> 00:21:01.725 I've got a, a very kind of acidy yellow jumper 486 00:21:02.105 --> 00:21:03.805 and brown cord. 487 00:21:04.925 --> 00:21:06.965 I am the lead practitioner in the creative arts at 488 00:21:06.965 --> 00:21:09.365 Westminster Special Schools, which, uh, 489 00:21:09.395 --> 00:21:12.885 college Park School is an autistic specific provision. 490 00:21:13.625 --> 00:21:16.925 And QE two School within Westminster Special Schools is a 491 00:21:16.925 --> 00:21:18.685 school that supports young people with profound 492 00:21:18.685 --> 00:21:21.365 and multiple learning difficulties, severe learning difficulties 493 00:21:21.505 --> 00:21:22.805 and complex autism. 494 00:21:23.545 --> 00:21:25.085 And I'm also the, um, 495 00:21:25.405 --> 00:21:28.165 I coordinate the West London Inclusive Arts Festival, 496 00:21:28.815 --> 00:21:32.045 which is, uh, kindly supported by John Lyon's 497 00:21:32.625 --> 00:21:34.445 and is made up of seven schools, 498 00:21:34.455 --> 00:21:35.725 seven special needs schools, 499 00:21:36.345 --> 00:21:40.325 and, uh, works with the Royal Albert Hall, the Royal Academy 500 00:21:40.325 --> 00:21:43.725 of Art, Action Space and Grey Eye Theatre. 501 00:21:44.705 --> 00:21:49.365 So we, we come together, uh, in the festival where, uh, 502 00:21:49.505 --> 00:21:51.605 and we're informed by co-production. 503 00:21:51.665 --> 00:21:54.925 So we are hoping to develop an environment, a kind 504 00:21:54.925 --> 00:21:59.285 of like ecosystem where the young people within the schools, 505 00:21:59.385 --> 00:22:02.525 the seven schools, if if they would like to become artists 506 00:22:02.945 --> 00:22:06.325 or performers in the future, we are significantly 507 00:22:07.165 --> 00:22:09.645 increases the increasing the chances of those, uh, 508 00:22:09.645 --> 00:22:11.165 those young people being able to do that. 509 00:22:11.745 --> 00:22:14.565 We also have a family strand, so we work 510 00:22:14.565 --> 00:22:16.245 with families in the seven schools, 511 00:22:16.385 --> 00:22:18.645 but then we also work with our cultural partners in 512 00:22:18.645 --> 00:22:20.885 developing a program of events 513 00:22:20.985 --> 00:22:23.525 to support them learning more about the cultural offer 514 00:22:23.525 --> 00:22:24.565 that's available to them. 515 00:22:25.385 --> 00:22:28.605 Uh, yeah, it's a great vehicle for in increasing inclusion 516 00:22:28.865 --> 00:22:30.205 and inclusive practices. 517 00:22:30.545 --> 00:22:33.045 And after watching that testimonial, which was amazing, 518 00:22:33.065 --> 00:22:35.165 by the way, how do you support Jadore? 519 00:22:36.345 --> 00:22:38.765 Oh, uh, I encountered Jadore some years ago 520 00:22:38.765 --> 00:22:39.845 when I was teaching him art. 521 00:22:40.425 --> 00:22:43.405 And his interest in cartooning was very obvious. 522 00:22:43.785 --> 00:22:46.325 Um, and his joy in cartooning 523 00:22:46.345 --> 00:22:50.925 and I, I'd become aware of the Cartoon Museum from working 524 00:22:50.925 --> 00:22:53.685 with John Lyon’s, and it was by reaching out to them 525 00:22:54.275 --> 00:22:56.405 that you could say the rest was history, really. 526 00:22:56.675 --> 00:22:59.845 What are the challenges then to delivering a rich 527 00:22:59.865 --> 00:23:02.405 and varied cultural curriculum in school? 528 00:23:03.225 --> 00:23:05.645 Uh, I suppose some of, one of the biggest tensions around 529 00:23:05.645 --> 00:23:06.885 that, and one of the biggest threats to 530 00:23:06.885 --> 00:23:08.605 that is, is financial. 531 00:23:09.345 --> 00:23:12.565 You know, um, I know a number of colleagues in schools, uh, 532 00:23:12.575 --> 00:23:16.685 where the schools are under immense financial pressure, 533 00:23:17.055 --> 00:23:19.605 where budgets are just allowing them to buy, uh, 534 00:23:19.905 --> 00:23:21.085 the basic provisions. 535 00:23:21.665 --> 00:23:24.365 So in terms of art, that would just be paper pens 536 00:23:24.365 --> 00:23:26.725 and pencils and nothing beyond that. 537 00:23:26.785 --> 00:23:29.485 So if you are looking at equipping those young people 538 00:23:29.485 --> 00:23:33.405 with cultural capital, that means being able to be able 539 00:23:33.745 --> 00:23:37.325 to facilitate those kind of experiences 540 00:23:37.475 --> 00:23:40.005 with arts organizations or artists. 541 00:23:40.625 --> 00:23:42.285 And if you haven't got the money to do 542 00:23:42.285 --> 00:23:43.925 that, you are unable to. 543 00:23:43.945 --> 00:23:45.405 You are, it really limits 544 00:23:46.185 --> 00:23:49.045 how you can equip those young people with cultural capital. 545 00:23:49.865 --> 00:23:53.805 Is there a, is there a curriculum agenda moving 546 00:23:53.915 --> 00:23:54.965 away from the arts? 547 00:23:55.705 --> 00:23:57.405 So, you know, young people aren't getting 548 00:23:57.425 --> 00:23:59.045 as many opportunities as that, 549 00:23:59.045 --> 00:24:00.845 that we, like we're talking about. Well, 550 00:24:01.105 --> 00:24:02.105 Yes, there is. 551 00:24:02.625 --> 00:24:05.525 Um, it's been structurally undermined when it was removed 552 00:24:05.525 --> 00:24:06.685 from the English Baccalaureate. 553 00:24:06.685 --> 00:24:08.925 So when the art, all the creative arts subjects were removed 554 00:24:08.925 --> 00:24:10.125 from, uh, well, they weren't removed from it, 555 00:24:10.125 --> 00:24:12.125 they weren't actually included in it in the first instance. 556 00:24:12.185 --> 00:24:15.445 Wow. So that kind of messaging is gonna message to schools 557 00:24:15.445 --> 00:24:16.525 that they don't have value, 558 00:24:16.755 --> 00:24:18.165 that there isn't value in the arts. 559 00:24:18.745 --> 00:24:22.365 Um, it's kind of slightly contradicted then by the, the idea 560 00:24:22.625 --> 00:24:24.005 of the broad and balanced curriculum, 561 00:24:24.005 --> 00:24:27.405 which is a statutory right for every school to be able to, 562 00:24:27.545 --> 00:24:29.605 to deliver abroad and balanced curriculum. 563 00:24:30.025 --> 00:24:31.285 So it's mixed messaging. 564 00:24:32.065 --> 00:24:34.245 Um, but it is also the subjects 565 00:24:34.245 --> 00:24:37.285 or the subjects that then can, um, 566 00:24:38.475 --> 00:24:40.085 they'll lose time, they'll lose money. 567 00:24:40.615 --> 00:24:43.245 There is a dominance, I know in primary schools, 568 00:24:43.245 --> 00:24:46.285 particularly around SATs, when they've got SATs coming up 569 00:24:46.285 --> 00:24:48.205 that all the other subjects kind of fall away. 570 00:24:49.265 --> 00:24:51.325 Um, and you basically, 571 00:24:51.335 --> 00:24:53.845 every subject is experienced through the arts anyway. 572 00:24:54.005 --> 00:24:56.165 I mean, it's the, I mean, it's a part of our area that we, 573 00:24:56.165 --> 00:24:57.565 we sit on chairs that have been designed. 574 00:24:58.305 --> 00:25:00.445 We wear clothes that are designed by fashion designers. 575 00:25:00.445 --> 00:25:02.645 We all listen to music. We've got wallpaper, paint, 576 00:25:02.655 --> 00:25:04.205 decoration on the walls around us. 577 00:25:04.835 --> 00:25:08.125 Arts and culture is imbued in everything. Everywhere. Yeah. 578 00:25:08.125 --> 00:25:11.125 Everywhere. And it also, you know, English, maths 579 00:25:11.125 --> 00:25:12.565 and science are all part of that as well. 580 00:25:13.085 --> 00:25:14.165 Cultural moments define 581 00:25:14.165 --> 00:25:16.605 how we see ourselves, you know, it, 582 00:25:16.625 --> 00:25:19.045 It creates, uh, community cohesion. 583 00:25:19.145 --> 00:25:22.605 Mm-Hmm. It is, it's how we all, it's the, it's the glue 584 00:25:22.605 --> 00:25:23.885 that kind of brings us all together, 585 00:25:23.885 --> 00:25:26.565 particularly in those great kind of moments, as you say, 586 00:25:26.565 --> 00:25:28.405 individually, but also nationally. Mm. 587 00:25:28.775 --> 00:25:32.085 Would you say Ofsted plays a role in 588 00:25:32.145 --> 00:25:34.125 how the arts prioritized? 589 00:25:34.835 --> 00:25:36.805 Well, that's, that's really interesting actually, 590 00:25:36.805 --> 00:25:39.365 because on the Ofsted framework, uh, 591 00:25:39.395 --> 00:25:43.845 when schools are being, uh, inspected, they have to explore, 592 00:25:44.545 --> 00:25:47.605 um, how they are the school that they're inspecting, 593 00:25:47.625 --> 00:25:48.645 how they're equipping the young 594 00:25:48.645 --> 00:25:49.685 people with cultural capital. 595 00:25:50.185 --> 00:25:51.605 So that's part of the Ofsted framework. 596 00:25:51.625 --> 00:25:53.365 So schools get measured by that. 597 00:25:53.545 --> 00:25:56.165 So it's the schools that are being inspected have 598 00:25:56.165 --> 00:25:57.845 to articulate how they're doing that, 599 00:25:57.865 --> 00:25:59.445 how effectively they're doing that. 600 00:25:59.905 --> 00:26:04.325 And 'cause cultural ca capital in itself is a, um, 601 00:26:04.735 --> 00:26:06.645 quite a broad reference. 602 00:26:07.105 --> 00:26:08.845 So they then have to give that kind of specificity. 603 00:26:08.845 --> 00:26:11.845 They have to say, within this school we do A, B, C, and D 604 00:26:12.505 --> 00:26:14.805 and that is equipping our young people with cultural capital 605 00:26:15.225 --> 00:26:20.125 and with cultural capital being quite, uh, in terms 606 00:26:20.125 --> 00:26:24.445 of what it can refer to, there is some what you, 607 00:26:24.465 --> 00:26:25.845 you could describe some tensions, 608 00:26:25.845 --> 00:26:27.685 but it's also some opportunities is 609 00:26:27.685 --> 00:26:29.645 because it hasn't been explicitly defined. 610 00:26:30.275 --> 00:26:32.845 Working in the school that I work in, 611 00:26:33.345 --> 00:26:36.685 we make a conscious effort to use artists 612 00:26:36.835 --> 00:26:40.685 that also describe them, define themselves as deaf, disabled 613 00:26:40.705 --> 00:26:43.005 and neurodivergent within our curriculum. 614 00:26:43.465 --> 00:26:47.205 So we are kind of introducing them to a, an inclusive canon, 615 00:26:47.505 --> 00:26:49.725 but we're also introducing those kind of conversations 616 00:26:49.725 --> 00:26:51.045 around disability as well. 617 00:26:51.965 --> 00:26:55.445 Hmm. And what is the difference 618 00:26:55.475 --> 00:26:58.725 between the arts curriculum in a mainstream school to 619 00:26:58.725 --> 00:26:59.845 that of a special school? 620 00:27:00.645 --> 00:27:02.205 I would say one of the most distinctive, 621 00:27:02.465 --> 00:27:03.805 or what could be perceived as one 622 00:27:03.805 --> 00:27:07.005 of the most distinctive differences is that when we work, 623 00:27:07.035 --> 00:27:08.605 when we work with cultural partners, 624 00:27:09.065 --> 00:27:10.725 we enter into co-production. 625 00:27:11.105 --> 00:27:14.405 So because to to work specifically in our setting, they need 626 00:27:14.405 --> 00:27:16.325 to understand the needs of the young people, 627 00:27:17.345 --> 00:27:18.565 the needs of the school setting. 628 00:27:19.875 --> 00:27:21.165 We'd like to work 629 00:27:21.165 --> 00:27:23.245 with cultural partners over a longer period of time. 630 00:27:23.405 --> 00:27:24.965 'cause it increases the impact in our 631 00:27:24.965 --> 00:27:26.205 school for our young people. 632 00:27:27.025 --> 00:27:30.365 It also supports the cultural institution in understanding 633 00:27:30.365 --> 00:27:32.525 more about inclusion and inclusive practices. 634 00:27:33.225 --> 00:27:34.605 So I would say possibly 635 00:27:34.995 --> 00:27:37.285 that would be the biggest difference, is that we have 636 00:27:37.355 --> 00:27:40.045 that time where we work together to plan 637 00:27:40.665 --> 00:27:42.805 and co co-produce the project, uh, project 638 00:27:42.945 --> 00:27:44.045 and deliver the project. 639 00:27:44.275 --> 00:27:47.925 Whereas maybe in a mainstream setting, um, if you went 640 00:27:47.945 --> 00:27:49.325 to a cultural organization, 641 00:27:49.385 --> 00:27:52.085 it might be much more off the peg kind of offer. 642 00:27:52.425 --> 00:27:54.005 Mm-Hmm. And 643 00:27:54.005 --> 00:27:56.205 what then are the consequences on the young people? 644 00:27:57.065 --> 00:27:58.245 For both, I'd say 645 00:27:58.885 --> 00:28:01.565 I, I think if you can get co-production, right, 646 00:28:02.305 --> 00:28:03.685 you can include the young person, 647 00:28:03.785 --> 00:28:05.325 you can include the school community, 648 00:28:05.325 --> 00:28:06.645 and you can also include the family, 649 00:28:07.215 --> 00:28:09.845 which means if you can include, include all those kind 650 00:28:09.845 --> 00:28:11.045 of key people into the mix, 651 00:28:11.665 --> 00:28:14.205 you are building very resilient cultural capital. 652 00:28:14.725 --> 00:28:16.645 'cause cultural capital is something that exists in the home 653 00:28:16.645 --> 00:28:17.925 as well as it does in school. 654 00:28:18.225 --> 00:28:19.765 So if you can bolster that in the home 655 00:28:19.765 --> 00:28:21.805 and you can include the family within the conversation 656 00:28:22.065 --> 00:28:23.925 and the celebration of those kind of things, 657 00:28:24.705 --> 00:28:27.605 it also means within a special needs setting, 658 00:28:27.745 --> 00:28:29.845 you can sometimes challenge parental perceptions 659 00:28:29.845 --> 00:28:32.205 of their own children and what they can actually achieve. 660 00:28:33.405 --> 00:28:37.485 I think, um, in terms of mainstream, I think 661 00:28:38.145 --> 00:28:42.205 it could be, there is a huge number of young people, people 662 00:28:42.305 --> 00:28:43.765 who have additional needs who are also 663 00:28:43.785 --> 00:28:44.965 in mainstream settings. 664 00:28:46.425 --> 00:28:50.605 Um, sometimes they have amazing experiences in mainstreams 665 00:28:50.605 --> 00:28:52.125 where the schools are very well equipped 666 00:28:52.125 --> 00:28:53.205 to support their needs. 667 00:28:53.205 --> 00:28:55.565 Unfortunately, sometimes that's not the case. 668 00:28:56.385 --> 00:29:00.005 So whereas, um, you could have what might be described 669 00:29:00.025 --> 00:29:02.325 as a super served school, a school 670 00:29:02.385 --> 00:29:04.205 that's got a very confident way of working 671 00:29:04.205 --> 00:29:05.325 with cultural partners 672 00:29:05.865 --> 00:29:08.485 and has that then has an impact on the young people. 673 00:29:09.065 --> 00:29:10.805 You could be in a mainstream setting 674 00:29:10.855 --> 00:29:12.165 where that doesn't exist. 675 00:29:12.305 --> 00:29:13.405 And you have children 676 00:29:13.405 --> 00:29:15.165 that have less robust cultural capital. 677 00:29:15.435 --> 00:29:16.805 They, they see less people 678 00:29:16.825 --> 00:29:19.005 who look like them or speak like them. 679 00:29:19.665 --> 00:29:20.885 Uh, so it, it's, 680 00:29:21.445 --> 00:29:24.085 I think those are probably the biggest differences. 681 00:29:24.845 --> 00:29:26.565 I think that is the case, though. 682 00:29:26.565 --> 00:29:30.085 Like, it, if you see less people that look like you, 683 00:29:30.305 --> 00:29:32.525 you don't feel like you can achieve 684 00:29:32.745 --> 00:29:36.405 and you can kind of, I don't know, you need role models. 685 00:29:36.845 --> 00:29:38.045 Everyone needs a role model, right? 686 00:29:38.345 --> 00:29:41.285 Yep. You need to be able, you, there's a, I think you need 687 00:29:41.285 --> 00:29:42.485 to be, to be able to see it 688 00:29:42.485 --> 00:29:45.685 or experience it to be able to see that you could do that 689 00:29:45.745 --> 00:29:47.525 or you could think that you could do that. 690 00:29:48.265 --> 00:29:50.925 Um, and I think where within cultural capital 691 00:29:51.075 --> 00:29:54.685 that is possibly one of the biggest opportunities there is 692 00:29:54.715 --> 00:29:56.285 that there is the possibility 693 00:29:56.425 --> 00:29:58.885 of developing an inclusive canon. 694 00:29:59.585 --> 00:30:01.405 One that is inclusive of everyone 695 00:30:01.465 --> 00:30:03.525 and reflective of all people because the arts 696 00:30:03.525 --> 00:30:04.805 and culture is so diverse. 697 00:30:05.265 --> 00:30:07.365 Mm. What is an inclusive cannon then? 698 00:30:07.625 --> 00:30:08.645 How do you use that term? 699 00:30:09.025 --> 00:30:12.805 So, for instance, uh, there's an artist called Nnena Kalu, 700 00:30:13.305 --> 00:30:15.045 who is a neuro divergent artist. 701 00:30:15.095 --> 00:30:18.485 She's, uh, she's supported by action space who, 702 00:30:18.545 --> 00:30:20.245 who support learning disabled artists. 703 00:30:20.375 --> 00:30:22.165 She's now in the collection at the Tate. 704 00:30:22.785 --> 00:30:27.045 So being able to use that artist within an art lesson 705 00:30:27.735 --> 00:30:29.965 where you've got young neurodivergent young people 706 00:30:30.255 --> 00:30:32.965 where you are introducing an artist who is first 707 00:30:32.965 --> 00:30:34.365 and foremost identifies as an artist, 708 00:30:34.385 --> 00:30:39.165 but also, um, has autism, you are, they're able 709 00:30:39.225 --> 00:30:41.965 to see that they, they themselves can be artists. 710 00:30:42.385 --> 00:30:44.565 Hey, yeah, I can do that. Yeah, definitely. 711 00:30:44.925 --> 00:30:46.725 I think that's so important. 712 00:30:47.445 --> 00:30:51.245 I mean, I remember not having any role models growing up 713 00:30:51.245 --> 00:30:53.885 and you just think, oh, well I'm so scared 714 00:30:53.905 --> 00:30:55.325 to have a disability now. 715 00:30:55.955 --> 00:30:58.045 It's like, if you don't feel like you can amount 716 00:30:58.045 --> 00:31:00.965 to anything, then where is kind of like the drive to kind 717 00:31:00.965 --> 00:31:04.245 of push forward and the need to fail 718 00:31:04.305 --> 00:31:06.325 and the the want to succeed, you know? 719 00:31:06.395 --> 00:31:08.285 Yeah. Um, it's just so interesting. 720 00:31:08.465 --> 00:31:10.525 Do you see that in your students now 721 00:31:10.525 --> 00:31:12.725 that they have more drive if they've been 722 00:31:12.725 --> 00:31:13.765 taught in that way? 723 00:31:14.065 --> 00:31:15.685 Oh yeah, completely. Um, 724 00:31:16.365 --> 00:31:18.365 I think our young people actually, we, 725 00:31:18.375 --> 00:31:19.605 we've got a project at the moment 726 00:31:19.605 --> 00:31:21.245 where they're actually describing themselves as artists. 727 00:31:21.865 --> 00:31:25.405 Oh, brilliant. Um, a a group of, uh, primary, 728 00:31:25.775 --> 00:31:26.965 upper primary students 729 00:31:27.145 --> 00:31:29.005 and working with those guys in the project 730 00:31:29.005 --> 00:31:30.325 where they will working with artists, 731 00:31:31.465 --> 00:31:34.245 but the artists were seeing the young people as artists 732 00:31:34.865 --> 00:31:38.925 and how then that, young neurodivergent young people 733 00:31:39.505 --> 00:31:42.485 and the opportunity to see how, what they engaged in 734 00:31:42.865 --> 00:31:45.725 and the kind of creativity of being able to see the world 735 00:31:45.725 --> 00:31:49.285 through a different lens, um, opened up all these kind 736 00:31:49.285 --> 00:31:50.325 of creative opportunities. 737 00:31:50.465 --> 00:31:53.325 And I, I, I would also suggest, well, I know 738 00:31:53.325 --> 00:31:55.845 for a fact it shifted the artists who were in the room 739 00:31:56.065 --> 00:31:58.005 as the facilitators, as much 740 00:31:58.005 --> 00:31:59.605 as it shifted the young people in the room 741 00:31:59.865 --> 00:32:01.725 who were then starting to perceive themselves as artists. 742 00:32:01.865 --> 00:32:04.125 So it's not just benefit here, 743 00:32:04.395 --> 00:32:06.005 there's benefit across the space. 744 00:32:06.065 --> 00:32:07.065 Mm-Hmm. 745 00:32:07.505 --> 00:32:11.125 And how can schools and organizations hold parents 746 00:32:11.305 --> 00:32:14.045 and communities and local authorities to account 747 00:32:14.625 --> 00:32:16.925 so it can become a collaborative solution? 748 00:32:17.805 --> 00:32:21.045 I think, um, it unfortunately, lots of kind 749 00:32:21.045 --> 00:32:23.565 of networks have fallen away because of austerity, 750 00:32:23.675 --> 00:32:26.445 because of those kind of financial, I think being able 751 00:32:26.445 --> 00:32:28.245 to bring people together in the room, 752 00:32:28.385 --> 00:32:30.485 so there's much more opportunity to learn about each other, 753 00:32:30.905 --> 00:32:34.005 to understand who we, who those individual groups are, 754 00:32:34.025 --> 00:32:36.285 how we can more, we can work collectively together. 755 00:32:36.905 --> 00:32:39.720 Um, particularly around things like co-production means 756 00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:42.285 that a holding people account actually becomes 757 00:32:42.925 --> 00:32:44.045 structural within that. 758 00:32:44.045 --> 00:32:45.885 Because if you are developing things together, 759 00:32:46.465 --> 00:32:47.565 you are all invested in it. 760 00:32:47.665 --> 00:32:51.125 You all want it to succeed. It needs to be more strategic. 761 00:32:52.245 --> 00:32:54.485 I think there needs to be a joined up conversations 762 00:32:54.485 --> 00:32:56.445 between local education authorities 763 00:32:57.505 --> 00:32:59.845 and within the local community to understand 764 00:32:59.845 --> 00:33:01.765 what cultural assets exist in those areas, 765 00:33:02.305 --> 00:33:04.365 and then for those cultural assets to be made available 766 00:33:04.545 --> 00:33:08.325 to all schools, but that, that's policy that needs 767 00:33:08.325 --> 00:33:10.565 to be strategic and everyone needs 768 00:33:10.565 --> 00:33:12.085 to be a part of those networks. Yeah. 769 00:33:12.085 --> 00:33:13.645 And you talk about cultural assets. 770 00:33:14.515 --> 00:33:17.845 What resources are available for schools at the minute, 771 00:33:18.505 --> 00:33:21.445 or arts organizations that want to make more out 772 00:33:21.445 --> 00:33:23.565 of their joint projects and partnerships? 773 00:33:24.085 --> 00:33:27.045 I think one of the things that when we work with, um, 774 00:33:27.405 --> 00:33:29.965 cultural partners that is really useful for us is 775 00:33:29.965 --> 00:33:32.525 that we've used some of the criteria from the arts award 776 00:33:33.235 --> 00:33:38.045 that enables us to, um, we can use it under it in terms 777 00:33:38.045 --> 00:33:39.085 of assessment material, 778 00:33:39.225 --> 00:33:42.805 but it also then supports our cultural partner in having an 779 00:33:42.805 --> 00:33:44.885 understanding of how they can support us in 780 00:33:44.935 --> 00:33:47.125 evidencing that kind of assessment. 781 00:33:48.065 --> 00:33:49.125 It takes some of the, 782 00:33:49.265 --> 00:33:51.765 the labor away from the school in a sense. 783 00:33:52.805 --> 00:33:55.325 I mean, you say that there's a lot of organizations 784 00:33:55.325 --> 00:33:58.165 that are falling away, like are there, you say you, 785 00:33:58.545 --> 00:34:00.365 you are tapping into some resources, 786 00:34:00.425 --> 00:34:02.165 but do you think there could be a bigger hub? 787 00:34:02.785 --> 00:34:06.085 Oh yeah, definitely. I think, um, being able 788 00:34:06.085 --> 00:34:07.965 to bring people, people into the room together, 789 00:34:08.075 --> 00:34:09.205 they can have those conversations. 790 00:34:09.205 --> 00:34:11.565 Just, I think better understanding of each other, 791 00:34:11.785 --> 00:34:14.445 better understanding of how you can work better together. 792 00:34:15.345 --> 00:34:17.565 But I do, I really do believe that it needs 793 00:34:17.565 --> 00:34:19.085 to be policy driven and structural. 794 00:34:19.085 --> 00:34:20.205 If they had someone in school, 795 00:34:20.625 --> 00:34:22.285 if they had a cultural education plan, 796 00:34:22.705 --> 00:34:26.645 and then someone in each school had to be the, was the, 797 00:34:26.645 --> 00:34:29.005 the person who was responsible for attending meetings, 798 00:34:29.945 --> 00:34:34.405 it would change the kind of geography in those areas 799 00:34:34.465 --> 00:34:36.805 of joining up the cultural provision 800 00:34:36.805 --> 00:34:38.805 between schools and cultural assets. 801 00:34:39.425 --> 00:34:40.725 And one thing that fell out 802 00:34:40.725 --> 00:34:43.925 of the festival was the Cultural Inclusion Manifesto. 803 00:34:44.345 --> 00:34:45.845 The Cultural Inclusion Manifesto is a 804 00:34:45.845 --> 00:34:46.965 set of guiding principles. 805 00:34:47.865 --> 00:34:50.765 Um, we, so if you read the manifesto 806 00:34:50.825 --> 00:34:53.565 and you agree with those principles, it's kind 807 00:34:53.565 --> 00:34:54.845 of a movement of people working. 808 00:34:54.955 --> 00:34:57.045 It's a collective understanding that if we want 809 00:34:57.045 --> 00:34:59.605 to increase inclusion across the space, we have 810 00:34:59.605 --> 00:35:01.445 to work together, we have to work collectively. 811 00:35:01.985 --> 00:35:04.045 Um, it's also understanding that we do need 812 00:35:04.045 --> 00:35:05.445 to lo uh, lobby politicians. 813 00:35:06.105 --> 00:35:08.045 So when we've had our conferences, 814 00:35:08.095 --> 00:35:11.005 we've always encouraged politicians to come down to open it 815 00:35:11.225 --> 00:35:13.085 and try to influence policy 816 00:35:13.705 --> 00:35:17.005 and practice to increase inclusion across the space. 817 00:35:17.385 --> 00:35:18.385 Mm-Hmm. 818 00:35:18.905 --> 00:35:20.645 Oh, Paul, thank you so much for your insights. 819 00:35:20.715 --> 00:35:22.685 It's been so great to chat to you. Thank you. 820 00:35:23.735 --> 00:35:25.485 Thank you both to Ali King 821 00:35:25.745 --> 00:35:27.605 and Paul Morrow for their generous 822 00:35:27.705 --> 00:35:30.405 and insightful comments on the importance 823 00:35:30.405 --> 00:35:33.725 of cultural capital, particularly for young people 824 00:35:33.915 --> 00:35:35.565 with learning and access needs. 825 00:35:36.685 --> 00:35:40.285 I invite not only arts organizations and schools, 826 00:35:40.945 --> 00:35:45.605 but individuals also to take a meaningful step by signing up 827 00:35:45.705 --> 00:35:48.165 to the Cultural Inclusion Manifesto. 828 00:35:48.685 --> 00:35:50.165 I encourage you to stay engaged 829 00:35:50.165 --> 00:35:53.485 with us on this ongoing exploration of inclusion. 830 00:35:54.185 --> 00:35:55.605 In the episodes to come, 831 00:35:56.215 --> 00:35:59.685 we'll delve deeper into various areas of inclusion, 832 00:36:00.285 --> 00:36:03.445 shedding light on critical topics such 833 00:36:03.445 --> 00:36:05.885 as career opportunities for people with learning 834 00:36:06.025 --> 00:36:08.925 and access needs, inclusive language 835 00:36:09.305 --> 00:36:12.885 and other subjects, inviting insightful discussions 836 00:36:13.195 --> 00:36:15.045 with experts and advocates. 837 00:36:15.625 --> 00:36:18.005 If you have experience, insights, 838 00:36:18.145 --> 00:36:21.485 or opinions on what you've learned during these episodes, 839 00:36:21.875 --> 00:36:26.085 then please follow John Lyon's Charity on Instagram, X 840 00:36:26.345 --> 00:36:28.565 and LinkedIn, and let us know what you think. 841 00:36:29.605 --> 00:36:33.485 Together, let's continue this journey towards a more 842 00:36:33.485 --> 00:36:36.365 inclusive world, where everyone, regardless 843 00:36:36.465 --> 00:36:40.685 of their abilities, feels seen, heard, and valued. 844 00:36:41.265 --> 00:36:42.445 Thanks for tuning in. 845 00:36:44.625 --> 00:36:46.205 Hi, my name's Anna Hoddinott, 846 00:36:46.205 --> 00:36:48.565 and I'm the Senior Grants Manager at John Lyon’s Charity. 847 00:36:49.265 --> 00:36:51.965 I'm a white female and my pronouns are she her. 848 00:36:52.545 --> 00:36:54.965 I'm wearing a bright print top and black trousers, 849 00:36:55.225 --> 00:36:57.005 and I have blonde shoulder length hair. 850 00:36:57.845 --> 00:37:00.165 I would like to thank our guests today, Ali 851 00:37:00.165 --> 00:37:01.485 and Paul, for coming to talk 852 00:37:01.485 --> 00:37:03.725 to us about the importance of cultural capital. 853 00:37:04.645 --> 00:37:07.805 I would also like to thank Jadore Kid, the cartoon artist 854 00:37:08.385 --> 00:37:11.565 who has shared his experiences with us on his testimony. 855 00:37:12.185 --> 00:37:15.005 We at John Lyon’s Charity are committed to the importance 856 00:37:15.005 --> 00:37:17.445 of arts and culture to all children and young people. 857 00:37:18.075 --> 00:37:20.445 This is particularly important for young people 858 00:37:20.445 --> 00:37:21.965 with learning and access needs. 859 00:37:22.985 --> 00:37:24.245 In our Perspective series, 860 00:37:24.825 --> 00:37:28.405 we have examined ways in which special schools can better 861 00:37:28.405 --> 00:37:29.605 partner with arts 862 00:37:29.625 --> 00:37:30.885 and cultural organizations 863 00:37:31.225 --> 00:37:33.965 to create meaningful opportunities for young people 864 00:37:33.965 --> 00:37:35.445 with learning and access needs. 865 00:37:36.345 --> 00:37:39.125 We feel that these opportunities for young people should be 866 00:37:39.125 --> 00:37:41.605 of the highest quality, and that can only happen 867 00:37:41.605 --> 00:37:43.165 through meaningful partnership. 868 00:37:43.165 --> 00:37:46.205 Working. To find out more about our Perspective series 869 00:37:46.205 --> 00:37:48.085 and the funding opportunities available, 870 00:37:48.465 --> 00:37:52.765 please see our website, www.jlc.London.